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[Trailer]

JO: Later I realised, oh they were telling me to shut up because I'm talking too much. And that's a paradox because no-one who doesn't like talking makes a podcast. 

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs. So, for this special end of season wrap-up, I asked my friend and fellow podcaster Josh Ogden-Davis to join me for a chat. I hope you enjoy our discussion about some of the things that go into creating the podcast. We talk about stuff like interview techniques, the editing process, and some of the show’s influences. But the main reason for recording this episode was to announce what's coming next. So please listen in until that part at the end. 

[Main]

OF: Thank you. Josh. I'm in your glorious apartment. This is where the magic happens with your podcasts. You do how many podcasts? 

JO: So I do one podcast that's in English, and that's Mandarin Slang Guide, and that's an interview-based podcasts like yours. Whereas you're focusing on bringing out peoples’ stories, I'm focusing on getting some words that people who are learning Chinese will not get from their Chinese class. So, slang words mostly, or words that are only used in certain industries, or words that are very fascinating for the current cultural moment. Aside from that I have maybe three or four podcasts that are in Mandarin. And the philosophy for these podcasts are just completely different. And I'm very curious about your philosophy behind Mosaic of China. Because you've talked about it a little bit before like your reasons for starting it, but I'm curious what is the philosophical underpinnings of this? What's the nut? 

OF: Oh wow, that's a hard question to jump straight into.

JO: Tell me the deepest thing right off.

OF: It’s really about trying to get some information through the stories of human beings. It's as simple as that. And it's not many people who would actually gravitate towards this podcast. If you're outside of China, maybe you could learn something about China, but you're not going to seek it out. People are just a bit scared of China and they would rather it didn't exist than try and seek out stories to help explain it.

JO: Yeah, can it just go away? Can this stop being an issue?

OF: Yeah, which is what I'm trying to bridge. But then you flip to people who are in China: those guys, they're also hard for me to reach with this podcast, because a lot of those guys, they're the kind of people who often think that they know everything already. So already my audience is basically, on either side of that spectrum, just people who are naturally curious, who want to hear from different angles, and who have the ability just to say OK, well, maybe I can learn something new from people who are living different lives. 

JO: You've done thirty episodes of Mosaic of China. That's a lot of episodes. That is a lot of stuff. What have you learned over the process of producing so much content in Season 1?

OF: Right. More often than anything, it's just about the different personalities, how different people live their lives in different ways. And most chats, even though they're so different, I end up leaving the conversation thinking “Oh they're just like me”. 

JO: Yeah. 

OF: Right? That was something I think I came into this already knowing. But I guess the experience of going through it, it has galvanised that thought. 

JO: And that ties back to what you said earlier about how sharing stories is a great way to bridge this gap between people in the West and people in the East who think very differently and are increasingly viewing each other with suspicion. I'm curious about what do you wish you had known before you started? 

OF: I would say, the process of learning as I went along was something I would not change.

JO: Yes. Absolutely.

OF: I mean of course, I also learnt a lot before I started, I mean, meeting people like you was really helpful.

JO: Yeah. We met at Podfest. 

OF: That’s right. 

JO: Two years ago, one year ago, something like that. 

OF: Yeah. But then you only really realise how you’re going to do it once you get started. I mean, it's like anything, it’s like any new job. It reminds me of when I started off as a headhunter. And Day One, you had to give people career advice. 

JO: Yeah. 

OF: You know, and then you do it over and over again, until it finally clicks and then you sort of become it.

JO: Right.

OF: Now that I can look back at the last thirty episodes, I think that has really been the process that I would not change. And actually, it sort of bleeds into my worries for Season 2 actually, because with Season 1 all the people who were guests, they were doing it in a very experimental mindset. They had, for the most part, never heard any episodes yet.

JO: Right, yeah.

OF: Because I recorded a lot before I even released the first episode. They didn't know how it was going to sound. They didn't know how other people would answer the questions and how theirs would compare.

JO: Right, yeah.

OF: So, what I am worried about with Season 2 is that people are going to be more knowing about it. 

JO: Yeah. That's something that people who listen to podcasts don't really know. So creating something from nothing. What is this podcast? There's a journey that happens as a podcaster that we almost have to hide from our listeners, because it's not really about us, is it. it’s about the topic that we’re doing.

OF: Right. It's all very self-referential talking about the process of the podcast. But yeah, I mean that's that's the only thing that I would say to answer that question. I think, otherwise it has more or less landed where I thought it would be.

JO: Let’s chip into a little bit of the nitty gritty. I want to talk a little bit about your interview techniques, because that's something that you do a lot more of than I do. How do you approach an interview? What's your preparation like for interviewing someone? 

OF: Well, I think researching the person is pretty important. So in my mind, I’ve prepared a few questions where I think I know where the conversation will go. But I don't know if that's technique, it's just being a good conversationalist, I suppose. In terms of technique, I guess shutting up is my key technique. Just shutting up. Because when I talk normally, and I think this is normal conversation, I'm always interrupting. It's just a terrible habit of mine. I'm listening, but I'm talking a lot. And the technique I use in interviews is just every second, say “Oscar shut up, Oscar shut up”. Like, people who know me would be quite surprised at how little they hear me. 

JO: Yeah. We have that in common, I remember after my first episode of MSG I sent it to a lot of friends, and I asked for peoples’ opinions, and one person very generously said “I would love to hear more from the guest”. They phrased it in a way that I understood it to mean that this listener really liked this guest. And later I realised, oh they were telling me to shut up because I'm talking too much. And that's a paradox because no-one who doesn't like talking makes a podcast. But one of the most important things about having a podcast is knowing when not to talk. 

OF: Yeah. And I figured, you're going to hear my voice across those thirty episodes. You know, anyone listening would have quite enough of my voice, thank you very much. 

JO: What do you tell a guest before the interview? How do you prep your guest for the interview? 

OF: I try to talk on mic for quite a while before I start. So it's not just: turn the mic on, we’re starting. Because if you do that, then suddenly you forget how to talk. So I guess that's one technique. I think the other one is something which I learnt as a headhunter, which was to mirror their energy. And not they are mirroring my energy. So that when you hear the podcast, there'll be quite different feelings in different episodes. Some will be quite slow and thoughtful and ponderous, and some will be a little bit cheeky. Some will be serious, some will be light. And generally speaking, that's because I'm adapting to what they want to do. And that, I think, gives the variety. So that is a good way of making people feel that they are in a space which is, sort of, for them. The thing that I put into practice most of all is… people call it “deep listening” but it's just a way that you're concentrating carefully on what people are saying. That is helpful in a way that you can make connections with what they may have said earlier in the conversation. Where, if you were listening a bit more casually, you probably wouldn't have the equipment to do that.

JO: And you're so good at that. My attention span is so short.

OF: But it doesn't come naturally to me either. Like, at the end of an interview I'm exhausted.

JO: Let me ask you this very stereotypical artists’ question. Tell me about your influences. 

OF: That's good. Yeah. Wow. Actually, people would recognise some of the influences, I would say, in my podcast. The piece about bringing in an object, that was heavily influenced by a British show called Desert Island Discs. And that is a show that's been running in the UK for, oh god, it must be thirty, forty years. Somebody will correct me on that. And each guest brings in six “discs” back in those days, which is basically music singles, which in some way tell a story of their life. And most Brits would have heard about that programme. And it just means that the guest is pre-prepared with something. They want to justify their choice, in a way. Which I think is very useful. So that was definitely a big influence, I've listened to that for god knows how many years. Another influence was Humans of New York. 

JO: Oh yeah. 

OF: Right. I'm sure you would have heard of it, it’s the Facebook group where it doesn't matter who you are, you could be the banker, you could be the beggar on the street, but you've got your story. You can tell the obvious parallels to Mosaic of China. I mean, I wish I could interview the beggar on the street here, but mine is an English language podcast. 

JO: Can you share with us, what are some of the most memorable moments for you? And I've listened to every episode of Mosaic of China, it's a weekly ritual for me, and I know what I've really enjoyed. But from your point of view, what's going to really stick with you? 

OF: It’s really hard to choose because some were way back in…  I mean, it could have been a year ago, it could have been April of 2019. And the funny thing that I've been doing is I did the interview, and then waited quite a long time before doing the edit. So I think most of the surprises (which probably isn't what you're trying to go for with your question) came in listening to the interview. Where I was like “Wow, I don’t remember saying that”. I think, in the interview itself, I mean, the one that springs to mind is the episode with Emily Madge who was the aquarium…

JO: Oh, the fish facts. 

OF: The fish facts. She came up with the most bizarre fish facts, and a lot of them were quite rude. I ended up cutting out quite a few. 

JO: And that leads into my next question, which is, what have you cut out that you wish that you didn't have to cut out? I always have that, like, either we get onto politics or someone makes a dirty joke, and I have to cut it out. But I feel so sad because I just love that moment, and I love that it was recorded, but I can't share it. Have you had that? 

OF: Yes there’s been a few of those, there's been a few. I think Roz, she was the immersive theatre producer, she had some quite dirty jokes which I had to cut in the end. Actually it wasn't because they were too dirty, but somehow they didn't get picked up on the mic very well. So it was a quality thing. I mean, there have been other things too. Lexie, who was the cookie entrepreneur, her story about the employee who ended up cheating on her, that went down a very interesting story, which in the end I had to cut just because it got a little bit too personal. But actually, I always want to always protect the guest. 

JO: Of course.

OF: So I would always err on the side of making them look good and making them feel comfortable. I mean, I always share the recording with the guests before I release as well actually.

JO: That’s great. 

OF: Yeah, I try and do that a couple of weeks before we're due, so they can always come back and say: no, yes, whatever. 

JO: You’re so organised. I usually, as soon as I’m done editing, I just launch. I'm usually down to the wire. 

OF: Oh well, I guess I've made my life very difficult because there's a lot of things that I'm juggling, which means that I can't be as quick. I wish I could actually. I guess, if I think about what I have cut, I did use to worry about that a lot. Honestly speaking, nowadays I don't worry about it so much. I think about the sculpture, the person who is chipping away at the rock to make the sculpture. There might be some really nice pieces of rock that you could have used, but ultimately if it's not part of the sculpture, then what are you gonna do? 

JO: Yeah. So, what’s next? Where’s Mosaic of China going from here?

OF: Right. Well, there's bad news and good news. The bad news is that I should have been recording Season 2 by now. 

JO: Oh, but you’re not. 

OF: I’m not, because, well the obvious reasons. We are still in this weird limbo period. A lot of my guests are still not in China. When the music stopped, they were outside of China. So I could try and do it over Zoom, but I think the intimacy of being in the same room, I think is quite important to the podcast. So I'm not going to do it until perhaps there's a chance for those guys to come back. Even people who are here in China, which is the majority I would say of Season 2, you’re still not in your normal routines. Your mind is still completely off-kilter. And so, I want to give it a chance for people to start to get back to whatever the new normal becomes. So that the virus doesn't infect, to use the word, the entire season. I think, of course, there will be some references to before and after coronavirus, because I think that's going to be just what's going to happen. There's definitely going to be a difference of lifestyle. But if I started to record now, it would just be all about it. So I have no choice but to have a bit of a pause. And, you know what? Some people in Season 2 will not come back to China, and so I have to switch those guys out. And there are other people whose circumstances have changed and they no longer want to be in Season 2. The rule was that you couldn't say a referral unless they'd already said yes to Season 2. But people are free to say no at this point. The good news is that I have been busy during my coronavirus self-isolation 

JO: I’m waiting with bated breath. 

OF: The beauty of the ten questions at the end is that now I can edit down the podcasts and do special compilation episodes of how everyone answered those ten questions. 

JO: Okay. 

OF: So this is what I've been doing for the last two months. I've just compiled them into special episodes on your favourite China-related fact, or on your favourite place to hang out, and each of them really work well as a compilation episode. 

JO: Yeah, I never thought about that.

OF: I hadn’t thought about it either, to the extent that I thought oh I'm going to sit down and actually do it, because who has the time to do that? Well, actually I did have the time. And I’ve really enjoyed doing that because it's nice to hear all the different voices of the season together in one episode. And it sort of, at the same time, makes me feel about these thirty people, even though they're so different and some have never even met each other, they all belong together. So I think without these compilations they all stand alone, and I think with these compilations they now form something which is more one unit. Which I've really enjoyed. So I have ten episodes now which I will release every two weeks. 

JO: Oh wow, yeah. 

OF: So that means I've got some content which I can drip out in the next twenty weeks, which hopefully will give me some time to, towards the end, start to record Season 2. So at the end of that process, hopefully, I'll be ready to release Season 2. 

JO: Yeah, that's fantastic. And these are going to be, I think, great episodes for a number of reasons. For all the reasons that you mentioned, but also because they have such potential to reach out to people who aren't in Mosaic of China right now. Like, if on my feed something came up that said “Thirty People's Answers to the Best Place to Hang Out in Shanghai” I want to know the best places to hang out in Shanghai. Favourite facts about China, I want to know all these facts. Like, this has great outreach potential. 

OF: I agree. And also, like, when it comes to engaging the people who are in those WeChat groups, who have been sitting there quite quietly for most to the time thanks for me bullying them, this allows me to say, “OK, it’s going to be the episode on your favourite China fact. Now's the time for you guys to share your favourite China fact.” 

JO: This is such a brilliant idea. It's almost like you had this planned from the very beginning. It's such a serendipitous thing to do. 

OF: Yeah. This is like, you know people talk about “the virus has allowed me to be more creative and to look things in different angles”, and I think that's kind of what was inspiring me to do this. And I’m especially proud of the KTV answer because I even went and got the music that they said, and have put it on the bed of what they're saying. However I can't release it. 

JO: Copyright 

OF: Because of copyright. I've made the episode, so if somebody wants it, then they can email me and I'll share it privately, but I can't publicise that one. 

JO: Excellent. Well I’m very much looking forward to all of that. I want these episodes, I want these compilations 

OF: Well I love what you do. I love how engaged you've been with my project and how helpful, not just you actually, there have been other people who have been also as generous, but you in particular have been so kind to always give me an answer and to have reached out and helped. And so I really appreciate that and I wanted to make sure that your mark is also in this Season. 

JO: Well I’m very happy to do it, and I think that there's real value in helping out other people as well. There are so many people in this day and age, everyone's got a podcast, right? But not everyone's doing it well, and so I'm happy to help out where I can when people are making good content that I enjoy listening to. 

OF: Well, the same goes for you, and let's end this podcast on this tone of mutual appreciation.

JO: Oh I can hear the background music coming in now. The episode’s almost over. 

OF: Thank you Josh, I'll make sure that that is exactly what we do, and it'll sound so smooth that you'll think I’m a pro.

JO: I have every confidence. 

[Outro]

OF: Well if you want an example of what I meant when I said I was afraid for future guests being too knowing about the podcast, listen no further than that ending. Thank you again to Josh for giving up his time and his apartment for this interview. I should mention that he also gave up a glass of Sichuan pepper infused rum, which started to have its effect during the interview. So apologies if I sounded more slurred and giggly than usual. That was me experiencing Josh’s interview technique right there. Just a reminder, if you're a fan of Mandarin please check out his MSG Mandarin Slang Guide podcast. He also has a really engaged group of fans on WeChat, which is a lot of fun to be in. I posted some photos from the conversation on my WeChat group, of course. Please add me there on ID: mosaicofchina* and I'll include you there. Or you can just follow @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram or @mosaicofchina on Facebook. Only one correction to make, it was about Desert Island Discs, the British radio show. It was actually first broadcast in 1942, which makes it not thirty or forty, but eighty years old. So I'm looking forward to Mosaic of China also being around that long, it will be the year 2100, and I’ll make sure that this podcast is automatically implanted into your brain. I did all my other “thank you”s at the end of Octo’s episode last week. So all that remains for me to say is that I will see you in two weeks time for the first of the compilation episodes, which will be on the subject of favourite travel destinations within China. See you then.

*A different Instagram handle and WeChat ID was mentioned in the original recording. Those IDs are now obsolete, and the updated details have been substituted.

See here for a full list of transcripts