Season 01 Episode 17

Episode 17: The Aussie Opportunist

Simon MANETTI - APAC Director, Kantar Consulting

Original Date of Release: 17 Dec 2019.

It's time to relect on the end of the year, and the end of the decade. So as you’re listening to Simon Manetti reflect on his last 10 years of choices and chances in China, take a moment to think about the forces that brought you to where you are today. Some of you might look back on your decade as a series of rational and linear decisions. Well congratulations to you. Personally I relate more to Simon: some rational decision; a few irrational ones thrown in; and otherwise a combination of luck, fate and opportunism.

Thank you to Simon for being so open, eloquent, and... relatable.

You can also listen to a catch-up with Simon at the end of the interview with Sean HARMON from Season 02 Episode 09.

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[Trailer]

SM: I couldn't turn left. I've alienated one of my hands. And, you know, I won't go any further there.

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs. 

Thanks for all the comments on last week's episode with Nini. Although I did get a little bit teased for mentioning ‘Linkin Park’ and ‘punk’ in the same breath. Yep, that was dumb. If you were inspired to try your hand at producing your own screenprint artwork, then the good news is that we've booked Nini’s studio in Shanghai for the afternoon of Saturday February 29th. There'll be a handful of guests from Season 01, and there's room for around 10 listeners to also join. I'll be posting more details on social media, so if you're interested, please watch out for that in the new year. We’re on @oscology* on Instagram and @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or add me on my WeChat ID: mosaicofchina* and I'll add you to the group there. 

And so today's episode will be the last one of 2019. In fact, it's the last one of the decade, I guess. So it's quite fitting that the episode being released today is the one with Simon Manetti. As you’re listening to Simon reflect on his last ten years of choices and chances in China, take a moment to think about the forces that brought you to where you are today. You might reflect on your decade as a series of rational, linear decisions. Well, congratulations to you. Personally, I relate more to someone like Simon: definitely some rational decision-making, but a few irrational ones thrown in, and otherwise a combination of luck, fate and sheer opportunism. 

A few quick notes about Simon story. At one point he uses the phrase ‘QC’, this means ‘Quality Control’. He mentions 炒鸡蛋西红柿 [chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì], this is a standard Chinese dish of eggs and tomatoes. And he also mentions ordering 外卖 [wàimài], this just means ordering takeout food. And finally there was an issue with my mic during this recording, but Simon's was fine, which is lucky because he is the one with the great voice.

[Part 1]

OF: Well, thank you Simon. I'm here with Simon Manetti. You’re a former lawyer, and now you're a guru of China retail tech. 

SM: Totally. 

OF: Well, we'll get into that. But why don't we start straightaway with your object. So, as people who are listening will know, I ask people to bring in one object that in some way encapsulates your life in China. So talk me through what you've bought today.

SM: Yes, so on most university campuses in China - at least those that welcomed foreigners - there is a Friendship Store. And when I first came to China in 2006, I was studying in BLCU in Beijing, and I bought my first China lamp, or what turned out to be my only China lamp. So to dispel the myth that everything in China is poorly made, this little beauty has been shining light on my endeavours for 13 years. 

OF: Oh wow.

SM: And it has travelled with me on 4-5 city and international moves, and somehow has been something that I've just not been able to let go of.

OF: Well, it's a nice link into your story, actually. So why don't you give us a little summary of where you've moved with this lamp?

SM: Yeah, sure. So I first came to China in 2006. This is immediately post-uni, just to date myself. Possibly the best year of my life, at least until I met my wife. 

OF: Well said.

SM: And it was a very different China, because China wasn't yet a thing…

OF: Right. 

SM: …As it is today.

OF: So, much more adventurous..?

SM: Yeah. And a little bit less materially driven, right? It wasn't at that stage about better job prospects or anything. It actually kind of blew up. At least for me, I was probably just ignorant, but perhaps they all knew. They were mostly American, and they seem to be a little more on point on these sorts of things. The backwater Ozzy just sort of strolled out with his cork hat, sort of saying “This place is alright.” But what I think bonded us further was the fact that we were able to get motorbikes. You bought your licence upon the purchase of the motorbike. I went for the biggest motorbike I could see, thinking that would be the safest. And I'll never forget riding straight off the curb, across the road, and into the other curb, and falling over. And kind of shyly, embarrassed, emasculated, turning around, laughing. Got up, manoeuvred my bike to run straight down the road, and re-commenced the journey. And tried to take a left again, at this set of lights - and this time, there was quite decent traffic - straight down.

OF: Oh man.

SM: Straight down. So we took many highway journeys out of Beijing, used it as an escape to get up around a place called 密云 [Mìyún]. And for a good six months, I couldn't turn left. If we had to take a left turn, I needed to be given a bit of notice, because I was going to have to do a right turn little loop-de-loop in order to be able to join everybody. I've alienated one of my hands. And, you know, I won't go any further there. Next question.

OF: Have you since gained the use of your left hand, can you now turn left?

SM: Um, I can turn left. I haven't ridden a motorbike for a while, I put those days behind me. But I ride my bicycle a lot. And yeah, I can turn left, yeah. But yeah, so that was my memory of Beijing. I then did a bit of a ‘walkabout’ soul-searching voyage around Europe and Australia, thinking I needed a gap year after really just having had a gap year. And then I landed back in China, in 宁波 [Níngbō]. It was interesting. It was not by choice, I was following a lady at the time, who was at the Nottingham University. So I moved straight into a Western compound. And I think we chose it primarily because it was directly opposite the Metro. And apart from being there - or on my way to the factory that I ended up working in - I can't say I saw much of 宁波 [Níngbō], which is, yeah, it's a shame. It was a manufacturing company that specialised in ultra high-end silk bedding. So with my nine months of 普通话 [Pǔtōnghuà], it somehow qualified me to be an intermediary between the production staff and fielding all the sales enquiries from the U.S. Sean Connery and Catherine Zeta Jones were amongst our clients. And then I was responsible for checking the order, and then most importantly, doing the QC. And I felt like such a ****, because I would come in and tell these guys who’ve been doing this all their lives… you know those little arrows that you put on contracts, to show where someone has to sign? 

OF: Yeah.

SM: Yeah, so I'd be coming along with those, and sticking them on this beautiful silk, just because I saw, like, something that I thought might have been a little thread, or a blemish, and said “Sorry Mr. Wang, we're gonna have to see to that”. And so I’d walk out. And I felt as soon as I walked out, everyone'd be rolling their eyes, and just going, like “This **** has no idea what he's doing”. And it was absolutely true, and totally warranted. But the other aspect of that experience that was telling, was that I wasn't forward-thinking enough each day to pack my own lunch. Everyone else brought their own food, and I went to the only ‘restaurant’ - and air quotes don't really work on podcasts, but that's what I'm doing - which was a tin shed with a gas blower and an open fridge where you could choose what food you wanted. And I just got the 炒鸡蛋西红柿 [chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì] every day. And I never got sick of it, to be honest, I have been able to eat it since. It was 6 RMB, I'll never forget that, 6 RMB every day. But it was also seen, I was seen as, like, this VIP **** who would go and eat at the restaurant as opposed to being with the people. And if I could go back, I would. I think I missed out on so many lessons by not being in the staff canteen, and being with the people. So that was 宁波 [Níngbō], but I did jump to the the production experience. But… and I’m basically here just to flush out everything that I regret. It’s kind of cathartic, I hope that's OK, Oscar, because this is a cathartic experience.

OF: Oh yeah. I mean, you’ve said that you've been a **** about three times…

SM: Look, it needs to get out of me. I'm not proud of this - and no-one should be - but when I first got to 宁波 [Níngbō], I actually didn't find the production job immediately. I found a job to teach - to facilitate - a kindergarten. Because everyone knows what it's like, right? You need to get that visa locked in. And they were absolutely lovely, as you'd imagine people who run a kindergarten to be. Though, the principal was this ex-army dude, chain-smoking, crew-cut, the works. And on my first day, after they've just given me this wonderful welcoming tour, everyone's super excited to have me there, they sit me down at a desk much like this one. And I took about three minutes to realise that this is absolutely not for me. So I stood up; I started walking down the stairs; I knew I'd have to get past the guy at the front door, so I did the classic, picked up my phone, nodded to him, started talking like I was ordering 外卖 [wàimài]; got out the front door; and just bolted.

OF: Oh, wow,

SM: Yeah. And never, ever looked back. I didn't think it through - which may be a common theme today - but my visa was in processing. I hadn't received it yet. So I then stressed for the next week that the former Army guy would be there with his buddies, waiting for me at the doors - or behind the bushes - of the visa collection point. And when I got there and got my visa, I was so relieved that I didn't even think to check any of the details. Fast forward three weeks, I'm in Shanghai having a jolly, thinking I'm the king, and I'm trying to get into a youth hostel. And they're like “No, sorry, your visa expired three days ago”. 

OF: Oh.

SM: So that's where I also got my first and only visa warning. Out to the PSB. And always check, people: If you **** over an employer while they are getting your visa, they may not cancel it, but they may adjust the term of that visa. That is China **** 101.

OF: I mean, I'd like to feel sorry for you. But I think that was probably the just desserts, right? SM: Yeah, yeah. 

OF: Well, that was your 宁波 [Níngbō] experience. And this is part of the reason I wanted to speak to you on this podcast, because you've had three or four different rebirths in China. So what was your next Renaissance? 

SM: Hmm. So 宁波 [Níngbō] then Shanghai. Right, so this was Shanghai Chapter 1. And this was prior to the road - or the bridge - that now spans the Bay of 杭州 [Hángzhōu], but at that time we were spending almost every weekend on the train - via 杭州 [Hángzhōu] - to get to Shanghai. I think everyone who was part of that were like “Yeah, we have to end up here, as quickly as possible”. So then I started working for a branding agency. And that was 18 months to two years of my life. We called ourselves ‘halfpats’ then - I think even that term was too grandiose - we were locally-hired, entry-level expats who are coming in and trying to make a career. And what I noticed was that I was going to have a very hard slog. So that's what led me to think “OK, I need hard skills”. So, you know, my interest led me to law, which is what had me cross paths with the person that put us in touch. 

OF: That was how we first met, through Nestor, right? 

SM: Yes, exactly. So Nestor was running a business that was facilitating foreign investors in China, helping them set up with it, their WFOEs, and overcome all the different issues that arise in that process. 

OF: And I should just jump in and explain that WFOE, for people who don't know, is a Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise, right?

SM: Hmm. So that was a really, really interesting time. Snd confirmed my interest in going in that direction, in sort of a commercial corporate law direction. So that's when I ping-pong’ed between London, Hong Kong, and London for the next five years, as I got my training contract. I went to Hong Kong, landed there, got to the firm, I didn't really think it through - again, we're returning to that theme - but I got to them, I said “Look, I'd like to transfer my training contract, it's in the UK at the moment, can I?” And they said “No”. And I said “OK, well I'm already here and I'm having a great time, can I just stay on and paralegal?” And they let me, and that was wonderful. Still, a lot of my best mates in the world are there. But because I had to return to London to formalise my legal path, I did so. But even while there, I think I realised that it's very easy to lose yourself in the rat race. And I did, I was actually really enjoying it. But then one day out of the blue, I had a mate of a mate ask me if I wanted to open up a business in a field that I had absolutely no interest or experience in. 

OF: Was it was it beds and mattresses again?

SM: It wasn't beds and mattresses again, it was in shopper marketing. 

OF: Hmm.

SM: It came out of left field, but the fact that it was going to be in China, and it was the chance to open up a business here. And so within a few months, I was sort of flung in as the sole man on the ground in Shanghai. And this is the chapter that I'm in now. So that was five years ago. For anyone wondering, I've since run that business into the ground. It turns out that you shouldn't manage a business you don't understand at all. Yeah.

OF: Oh right..! I’m glad that you are able to share this wisdom with us.

SM: Yeah, yeah. And maybe we can just edit everything before that, because that's all people really need to know.

OF: Yeah. There are many people who I think have a similar story. You kept saying that the through line was not thinking things through. 

SM: Hmm.

OF: But what I would call it is ‘a sense of adventure’, and a tenacity, and also a humility to do things where maybe there wasn't a direct progression, it was more of a sideways move, but something where it opens up your extra options. You know, you've said that there are things that you do regret, and I can obviously see why. But look at you now, you know. 

SM: Hmm.

OF: I would say you're in a place where you can look back and say “Well, it all happened for a reason”. Do you see any advice that you would give, particularly? Or has it all been just ‘going with the flow'?

SM: I would say, follow your heart, follow your interests, and you will find these disparate points will be threaded together somehow. That's one point. I think the other thing is you need to have some sort of common thread that’s binding your experiences. And for me, there's a fascination with China, and being in China, that has to drive you forward in whatever you do. If you no longer want to be here, I don't have any advice for you. I'm on the other side. And I don't know why. A lot of people ask me why. It's kind of like when a partner says “Why do you love me?” And it’s… “I don’t know…. You're hot…? You make me laugh…?” I don't know what the equivalent is for China. I think that it’s, I'm always surprised. And I guess it's kind of like a drug, you just get addicted to the optimism and the growth and the idea that, you know, things are going to get better. Here, and in your life. It's infectious. But I've spoken to some mates who are in my position now about this, And I’m starting to feel like a bit of a gambler, you know, and you start gambling with your time, right? And the chips that are on the table are your sunk costs, because you've already put a few years in, but now you feel that you have to get a return for those years you've already invested in China. And I think this is a critical point that people don't talk about enough. This idea that “OK, I've been here 10 years, I need to walk away a multi-millionaire and never have to work again”. Right? Or “I need to walk away with a really, really cool tattoo”. Or, you know, or “I need to know how to kung fu people”. So that's definitely, that's a plaguing thought at the back of my mind, like, am I staying here now only because I feel like I should have walked away with more? Because you know, you go back home, and you’re like “Yeah, I've been in China for 10 years.” They’re like “Oh, you speak Chinese?”, “Yeah I speak Chinese”, “That’s amazing, you can do anything. You can do anything”. “Well… OK, give me some ideas. What should I have done?” So…

OF: Yeah, whenever someone says that to me, I say “The only thing I can do is display my stupidity in a different language.” Of course, I'm joking, because it opens a window to the culture, which otherwise you certainly couldn't get.

SM: Yes.

OF: I think what you've done, especially when you left China to come back, I think that was a good move. 

SM: But it really depends on what you were then looking to do. If I wanted to stay an employee and go in that route, then perhaps it was a good call. But if I want to come back and be an entrepreneur, then I would say it was a complete waste of time, and you should stay here, and learn to roll with the punches that China throws, and to adapt to this incredibly fast moving market, right? Because if you leave for too long, you'll lose your touch. 

OF: Well I think the key take-home is just follow your passion. For me, the most interesting people, are people who I meet in their 30s and 40s who are still saying “Well, I don't know what I'm going to do in the future”. Especially now, you know, when careers aren't as linear as they used to be.

SM: Mmm.

OF: You know, I think China is just playing into that global trend as well. And again, as you say, the Chinese element, yes, it's a good baseline, but, you know, you have to have something on top. And I think I've seen that as well with Chinese people in China, who used to get away with a lot just by speaking English… 

SM: It’s true.

OF: …And a lot of foreign employers would come here and just be wowed by their English and hire them, and then realise actually, the person who spoke less good English actually is a better employee. And that is now also changing on the other side. So I think what you say is a good lesson for people who want to come to China and make their career, but also Chinese people who are going overseas too. 

SM: And both need to buy a good lamp. 

OF: Yes, exactly. And the lamp has been on the whole time, making our sound studio all the more comfortable and cosy. So thanks very much, and it's a good throughway to talk about the 2nd Part of our conversation.

[Part 2]

OF: Question Number 1. What is your favourite China-related fact?

SM: There are more English speakers in China than there are in the United States. 

OF: Oh wow.

SM: Yeah, it's a good reminder of the diligence and the approach to education here. And also a reflection of China's scale. 

OF: Very good. Number 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?

SM: Yeah, 可遇而不可求 [Kěyù ér bùkě qiú]. I think it's because as soon as I learned it, it came up a lot, I wanted to use it a lot, and even with expats. So what it means is, ‘this is something that can be encountered, but not be sought after, or chased’. So this is something you're just gonna have to encounter in life, and not try to seek it. And when I first learned, I was like “Ah OK, there’s an English equivalent to this”. But then I realised, when I tried to translate it, there isn’t. And it's such a beautiful concept.

OF: Does that speak to a certain fatalism that you find here, and not in the West?

SM: I don't know.

OF: Number 3, what's your favourite destination within China?

SM: Hong Kong.

OF: Oh nice. 

SM: Yeah. 

OF: Simon’s giving me a wry smile. So yeah, I can just visualise the parties you've had in Hong Kong. Because that’s what Hong Kong’s famous for.

SM: Knowing nods, yeah.

OF: Right. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?

SM: So the most would be the optimism. My wife is French, I've got Italian family, and I go back expecting to love it immediately, and I look around and everyone is just so grumpy and negative. And I immediately miss the Chinese optimism. What would I not miss, oh the internet, man. The Internet I get so frustrated, yeah. The few grey hairs that I have are solely because of the internet not working.

OF: Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?

SM: Everything should mystify you about life in China. You know, there are guys who are here after like six months to a year and they know everything about China. 

OF: Oh, yeah. 

SM: You know, and then you’re here for like 2-3 years onwards, and suddenly things are confusing. Five years on, you've got no idea what's going on at any one point in time.

OF: Where's your favourite place to eat, drink, or hang out? 

SM: Um, Alimentari, yeah. 

OF: Nice. Just for anyone who doesn't know Shanghai, this is… Is it Italian? I guess it’s Italian.

SM: Yes, it is.

OF: Right. And it’s like a delicatessen, but it spills out onto the street and you can eat all kinds of cheese and hams and salamis.

SM: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

OF: What has been the best or worst purchase you've made in China?

SM: Apart from the lamp?

OF: That's the best, right?

SM: That's the best. My bicycle. Yeah.

OF: OK. But this is now important, what's your favourite WeChat sticker?

SM: How does one describe a WeChat sticker? So it's not creepy, but anything with kids in it. They're just so real. Right? So kids doing a dance, kids doing fist pumps. I'm all for it. I go authenticity, unbridled passion. I've got three in my mind that I'll have to think about. I might let you choose. I couldn't choose amongst them.

OF: OK good. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?

SM: Probably The Bee Gees. I can only really sing falsetto. 

OF: Brilliant.

SM: So, what is it… “You can tell by the way I use my walk, I’m a woman’s man, no time…” What is it? What is it?

OF: Er… ‘Stayin' Alive’.

SM: ‘Stayin' Alive’! Sorry. I just screamed there, I just got so excited. So you can see, it just comes out.

OF: Wow. 

SM: Yeah, there you go. 

OF: And finally - it’s such a downer to end on this question after that answer - what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely on?

SM: Yeah. China Tech Talk, China Tech Investor. Those guys are awesome. TechNode, you're awesome. 

OF: Very nice. Well, thank you so much, Simon. That's been great. And as you know, the final part of this interview is to ask you, if you had someone who you'd nominate for me as the most interesting person you know in China at this point, is there one person's name that springs to mind?

SM: Many, but one person I'd like to see go through this is Alex Duncan.

OF: Alex. 

SM: Yeah. 

OF: OK. Well, hopefully we'll have him on the next series. And the meantime, thank you so much, Simon. 

SM: Awesome. Thank you.

[Outro]

OF: So the first thing to talk about is Friendship Stores or 友谊商店 [yǒuyì shāngdiàn]. Simon mentioned that this is where he bought his object, the lamp, in Beijing. These are state-run stores which initially only sold to foreigners, but as China has opened up over the last 30 years, most of these stores have closed down. And the ones that do still exist have no restrictions about who they can sell to. Simon also mentioned the PSB, in the context of the one time he overstayed his visa. This is short for the Public Security Bureau, it's the local government office which deals with residence registration, and the 户口 [hùkǒu]. For more on the 户口 [hùkǒu], listen to Episode 09 with Noah Sheldon, the filmmaker who made documentaries on workplaces in China. 

There are photos of all this, that I've posted on social media, including a couple from Simon's motorbiking days in Beijing, and a very revealing one from his party days in Hong Kong. Simon is the one in the white outfit, in case you don't recognise him. You can see what 炒鸡蛋西红柿 [chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì] looks like, it's the dish of eggs and tomatoes that Simon lived off in the factory in Ningbo. And I've also posted some details of the 杭州 [Hángzhōu] Bay Bridge, which nowadays links 宁波 [Níngbō] and Shanghai. And there's a bunch of other photos too. 

And that's it for the decade. If you want to give me a Christmas present this year, then please do me a big favour and share the podcast with your friends. And if you're feeling especially kind, then please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a comment or a rating. It really does help the project along.

Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editing support from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny Newell, and China support from Alston Gong. Thank you truly for all your support since August, I do really mean that. And if you celebrate Christmas, then Merry Christmas to you. And I'll see you back in mid-January.

*Different WeChat and Instagram handles were mentioned in the original recording. These IDs are now obsolete, and the updated details have been substituted.