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[Trailer]

OF: This is the second question you've answered which includes toilets.

ZY: This is very important. Yeah.

OF: Hey, you're very practical. Let's talk about death… and ****.

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

In case you’re wondering about my voice, I’ve got COVID-19. Luckily I’d done most of the work for this episode before getting sick, so I’m going to release it now and then go on a break for a few weeks.

Today’s episode is with Zhou Yan, a Chinese lady. But there’s an immediate connection with the guest from the last episode - the commercial airline pilot Michael Hundegger from Austria - because Zhou Yan also spent many years in Austria before returning to China. I mention this because she has a really nice way of sometimes using a German figure of speech rather than an English one. So listen out for when she says things like ‘Buddhismus’ instead of Buddhism, ‘Papier’ instead of paper, ‘history’ instead of ‘story’. It’s very subtle, but it’s one of those things that I love picking up on when speaking with someone whose background includes a real mix of cultures.

Speaking of past episodes, one of my favourites was the one with Louise Roy from Season 02 Episode 06 where we talked about the way China handles childbirth. Well today’s episode is about the other side of that story, the process of dying. The subject matter gets quite personal at times, so I just wanted to warn you to please proceed with caution if you’re in a sensitive headspace right now. Let me also tell you right from the start that my original conversation with Zhou Yan was really really long, there’s actually almost 30 minutes of bonus content in this week’s PREMIUM version of the show. So if you already know that this is a topic that you’re interested in, save yourself some time, head to mosaicofchina.com and immediately subscribe to that version so that you can listen to our conversation in full.

And finally, this is one of those episodes which justifies the format of the show, because it allows us to have quite a serious tone in Part 1 but we can then switch to a completely different tone in Part 2. So if you’re at any point thinking that the conversation is getting a little heavy, hang in there! And I mean hang in right until the end, because we also have two excellent catch-ups with previous guests of the show, both of whom are also definitely worth listening into. So let me shut up and let’s finally get started.

[Part 1]

OF: Thank you so much for coming today.

ZY: You’re welcome.

OF: I haven't said your name yet because I'm always nervous about tones. So ‘Zhou Yan’, but how do you say it with the tones?

ZY: 周燕 [Zhōu Yàn].

OF: 周燕 [Zhōu Yàn], so it’s 1st tone, 4th zone.

ZY: Yeah

OF: 周燕 [Zhōu Yàn], OK. The first thing I will ask you is, what object did you bring that in some way describes your life in China?

ZY: I thought long about it. And then finally, my decision is my phone. My cellphone?

OF: Oh.

ZY: Yes.

OF: OK. I must say this is not the first time someone has brought their phone. So I'm a little bit disappointed.

ZY: Mm-hm.

OF: But telling me the reason.

ZY: OK, my reason was that the smartphone has changed my life so dramatically. I came back to Shanghai at the beginning of 2014…

OF: When you say “Came back,” where were you?

ZY: From Austria. And at that time, I think I had no more than 20 WeChat contacts. And now I have over 2,000.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Actually, I hate it, that WeChat totally changed the way how I work. I really miss the time when we only had phone and emails.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: I found out that I might have… I don't know how to pronounce the word, but I can't see how to just distances. This ability is reduced.

OF: Ah. It’s damaging your eyesight, you mean?

ZY: Yes. I really would like to have a job where I don't have to check my phone all day.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: Yeah. But I don't know if it's possible to have it in Shanghai.

OF: It's interesting. You've chosen the object that defines your life, but in a bad way, right?

ZY: In a bad way, yeah. But maybe I will say “Bye bye”, and just check my phone once in the evenings then.

OF: If I asked you what it is that we were going to talk about, how would you describe our topic of conversation?

ZY: It’s that I’ve decided to engage as a volunteer in hospice service for the last three years.

OF: Right. And this is particularly interesting, because the way that China and the Chinese deal with death, in some ways it's very similar to anywhere else in the world. And in other ways, it's a little bit heightened, there's a little bit more of a stigma.

ZY: Yes.

OF: So I'm extremely interested to talk about this with you.

ZY: OK.

OF: So tell me about the organisation that you volunteer for.

ZY: OK, in Chinese it's called like ‘Hand in Hand’: ‘手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu]’

OF: 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].

ZY: Yeah. It was already founded in 2008. I think they are one of the very first NGOs in China who started to do this.

OF: Where were you at that time?

ZY: I was still in Austria.

OF: Oh, so you lived in Austria for a long time?

ZY: For a long time. Like, almost 12 years.

OF: Well I want to find out the story about how you got from Austria to what you're doing now. But let's jump forward for now.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: And let's talk about what it is that the organisation does.

ZY: They do basically two things. First of all, they train volunteers like me and then send us to hospices, where we know that the only patients allowed to be there are those who will not live for more than six months.

OF: Right, yes. And do they know that?

ZY: Not always. Because in China, many families tend to ask the doctors “Ah, don't tell him (or her) the truth, he will be so frightened. So it's better that he doesn’t know that.”

OF: Mmm. And what is this hospice? This is a separate institution from a hospital?

ZY: It's usually in a hospital.

OF: Yes.

ZY: But it's usually then also a separate part. For example, half of a floor. Or even the whole floor, if the hospital supports that. In most hospices, very basic services are provided. Because hospice rooms here in Shanghai are in the very basic-level hospitals. Hospitals in Shanghai are divided into three levels. First are the community hospitals; the second level is the district hospitals; and the third level is city hospitals. And most of the hospice rooms are located in the community hospitals.

OF: Which is the lowest level.

ZY: The lowest level.

OF: OK.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: How then do you get involved? Do you contact them, or do they contact you?

ZY: So usually the standard process is that a hospital will contact our organisation and say “We would like to have a volunteer team”. Then our NGO will start to look for people. They usually do training twice or three times per year, so people can just register for the training. And then after the training, we will just go to the hospice, and as volunteers we go there once a week. And there we will just have an internal discussion, to talk about the things that happened over the last week. And then we will go into the rooms, and go around and find our patients. Sometimes ones that you will stay with for several weeks; sometimes it's just random, or just a feeling: who you feel that you would like to stay nearby, to him or to her.

OF: Can you give me some examples of when you have dealt with an individual?

ZY: Old people here in China, they are not used to showing their emotions or talking about their feelings. They are usually only taking care of the very physical things, like getting you something to eat, or “Do you need water?”, things like that.

OF: Yes. That's how they express love to each other, right?

ZY: Yes. So when we are there, usually we will try to help them to recall what they have done when they were young; anything that they have achieved; any good times they have had; things like that. To find… Not to find, but to see the meaning of their life.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Which has been always there, but they were not able to see it. One example was a patient,  who was a very special one. He just talked very aggressively to everyone, even to his wife. It was always, like, blaming you.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: So another volunteer kept on talking with him, that he should express his feelings in the right way to his wife. And of course, this took some time. And then one day as his wife came to his bed again, he said “I'm sorry”. He just said this one sentence. And usually his wife sat distant to the bed. But when she heard this sentence, she was shocked at the beginning, and then started to cry. And then since then every time she came again, she started to sit next to him on the bed.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: So what you can do then is to bridge this communication between people. So it's not just you and the patient, but you're creating an atmosphere where the patient and their family can talk openly.

ZY: Yeah. Because in hospice we have a ‘value’, I don't know how we should call that. But usually we believe there are five things you should do. To say “Love”; to say “Sorry”; to say “I forgive you”; to say "Thank you”. And the last thing is - if you have done the first four things all very well - the last thing is to say “Goodbye”.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: And it won't be that difficult then.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: That's what we are usually trying to help our patients to do.

OF: So when you meet someone, you can - in your mind - see which stage they're at?

ZY: No no no, it's not fixed in this order. And maybe it's also not necessary for people to do all of this.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Maybe sometimes only one or two of them is already enough.

OF: And then you said that when you joined this NGO you got training. So this is the training that you received?

ZY: Yes. They don't think they are just training volunteers for hospice work. They believe this is also the chance for me to be a better me. It's not just focused on details. Our founders will always help us to see the whole thing, and ask me to think about “Why was this a problem?” or “Why this happened?” Because it’s usually because of me, something internal here.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: And only when we see the origin where the problems were made, then you can deal with the whole thing much better.

OF: Well let's jump to that topic, then. Because this is one of the questions that I wanted to ask you, which is why you do this. Why do you volunteer to be around dying people?

ZY: Well, I've been asked this question several times. I have an official answer, and an unofficial answer.

OF: Good. Give me the official one first.

ZY: OK. The official answer first is that I always like to work as a volunteer. Which is true, since I was a little girl I always liked to do that, to help people. This ‘service’ character, you know, I like to help people. Shanghai is actually a very great city, where you can always find enough people for general volunteer service.

OF: Oh.

ZY: So I thought then “Well there must be some area which are maybe more difficult, and which cannot find that many people”. So I came to the idea of hospice work.

OF: OK.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Official answer complete. What about the real answer, then?

ZY: The real answer is just a real for this moment, it can be changed in the next few years again. The real answer is that since I've started to do this - at first it was hospices, and after that it was the Death Café, which we'll talk about later - I came to the reality that I personally got much more from this volunteer service than I can do for others, actually.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: In the first year when I started to hospice work, one very obvious change is that I started to see my family. I mean ‘see’ my family. Family for me used to be like water for fish.

OF: Right.

ZY: They are just here. Well, it doesn't mean that we don't have a good relationship. We have. What it really means when I started to ‘see’ them is, for example, I started to realise that my grandmas and grandpas will not be there some day.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: In the past I just went there, you know, like ‘doing my job’. Like once a month, to visit them, to have a lunch with them, that was all. And then after I started to do hospice work, I thought "What can I do for them? And what do they really want to have?" For example I found out that my grandma always wanted to see a panda in reality…

OF: Right.

ZY …Because she only saw them on television before.

OF: Oh.

ZY: And she was already over ninety, and she couldn’t really walk very far. So I took a day off from work, and took my grandparents to the Shanghai Zoo, and my grandma really saw a panda for the first time in her life.

OF: Wow.

ZY: Things like that. Then with my grandpa to the cinema, yeah.

OF: It's very lucky. Because a lot of us, we lose our grandparents before we have the chance to really ‘see’ them.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: And does that also translate to your relationship with your parents too?

ZY: Yes. We used to quarrel a lot. We have a very good relationship, but since I was a kid the way we communicated was shouting to each other, and not really talking peacefully. Because this was actually the way they were talking to each other, I just learned it from them.

OF: Ah.

ZY: But I started to change. Because one thing is very clear for me: the best work of one's life can just be oneself. So I started to change myself.

OF: Ah.

ZY: And then - maybe one or two years later - I started to see that they were also starting to change the way they talk to each other.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Yeah. If you go into the street and ask people “Hey do you know that we will die someday?” they will think “Are you crazy? Of course, I know”. But most people know it like ‘1+1=2’. They are not really taking this into their life, and into the decisions. And I just don't want it that maybe I left my parents’ apartment this morning, and we have just quarrelled with each other again, and then maybe an accident happens to me. And that was the last conversation we had with each other.

OF: Yes.

ZY: Then it will be a bad farewell. Yeah.

OF: Yes. I can definitely see how that would make you live more intentionally every day.

ZY: Yes, more aware of the life that I'm having.

OF: You've mentioned the Death Café. This is separate from your job in the hospital itself. Can you explain that?

ZY: The Death Café is actually a second very important part of what the NGO is doing.

OF: Right.

ZY: And the Death Café actually originates from England.

OF: OK, so what is the concept?

ZY: Bernard Crettaz is his name. So he first came up with this idea, because death is the only thing which will happen in our life with 100% certainty. But we don't take so much time to look into this topic, and to talk about it, and to get ready for it. So he first came up with this idea, and it stayed on paper only. Jon Underwood, he first held a Death Café according to this idea, and he also got some support from Professor Bernard Crettaz. He first had this Death Café, I think, in 2011 in London. It took him one year to prepare the Death Café. And do you know why it took him so long?

OF: No.

ZY: He couldn’t find a place.

OF: Ah yeah.

ZY: He was not able to find a café that was willing to have this kind of talk. So he held the first death café in the world in his mother's house, in the basement.

OF: How funny. So it's called ‘Death Café’, but it doesn't have to be a café.

ZY: Yeah, it's important that you have coffee or tea, just make yourself comfortable and relax. And let's talk about death.

OF: I see.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: OK so what happens in this death cafe? You, for example, are you one of the leaders?

ZY: Yes. I think currently we are already over 600 people in over 50 cities in China.

OF: Oh wow, yeah.

ZY: Yeah. But it's totally volunteer-based. So it doesn't happen regularly, it’s only when I have time, and when I feel like it. Then I will organise it. And it's actually just a relaxing afternoon tea, but we still have some certain principles. So first of all, the topic should be focused on death. Second of all, we should have respect and listen to others. Because I think in China, people judge a lot.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: So we try not to judge others, just listen to what they are saying. Because death is very personal. You cannot say “I don't agree”, and “You should think like that”. So we don't do that. And if you share your stories, maybe it's connected with some religious things. This is OK, but don't make it, you know…

OF: Pushing on others.

ZY: Yes. Like “Buddhism is good”, things like that.

OF: Yeah, right.

ZY: This is not allowed. The last thing is that here in the Death Café, we allow emotions to be shared, to flow around the room. But when we leave, all the stories we have heard stay here.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: But of course, sometimes at the beginning they will be a little bit hesitant and they will just wait to see what other people say. And sometimes we will use some small devices to start the topic of conversation. For example, I could just take a piece of paper, and tear it into small pieces, and write down random numbers - like 1, or maybe 90, or maybe a very very big number - and mix them up so that everyone can pick up a one. And the number is the estimated days that you can still live. And then I will ask people to share what they feel when they see this number.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: It’s a very simple but very useful device.

OF: That's how you get the conversation started.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: And then as someone is reacting, they might also bring out their personal story.

ZY: Yes, yeah.

OF: Do you also recruit volunteers from these groups? Because it must be hard to find volunteers who want to do this.

ZY: Not that hard, actually.

OF: Good.

ZY: Not that hard. For example, last year our NGO, 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu], had this Death Café leader training in Shanghai, and also in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]. For the quantities that we are able to train, it’s enough for this moment.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: But for the whole of China, of course it's not enough.

OF: Well, exactly.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: It’s just starting. But are there any other NGOs like you?

ZY: Death Café, I don't think so. Hospice, yes.

OF: Got it. Well, let's go back to the hospice, because what I want to ask you next is, what do you see when someone is about to die? Do you know “OK, this person is only a few days away.” Like, what are the physical things that start to happen?

ZY: Um, if you see these people weekly, the first things you would notice is that the energy is not there any more. For example, maybe last week she was still sitting there, and this week she can only lie there, she's not able to sit up any more. The second thing is if she would greet you as before or not. Then if it's getting nearer and the nearer to the end, you will also see the colour of the skin will start to change. For example, there will be more and more… how to say this? The blue one…

OF: Ah, bruises.

ZY: The bruises. There will start to be more and more bruises. And if you are close enough - usually the families could find out - the ears are getting more soft.

OF: Wait, the ears get soft.

ZY: Yes. This part.

OF: I've never heard that before.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Huh.

ZY: There are actually a lot of signs that you would see, if you really see it very closely and carefully.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: If the patient still drinks water as normal, usually it starts with the feet, or also with the fingers. Yeah, it's the very furthest part, far away from the heart. Then you will start to see, they will get swelling.

OF: Really.

ZY: Because the body doesn't need it anymore. Because in the last days, the organs have also slowed down to work. So they can't really handle all these things anymore. Actually, they don't need to eat then, in the last days. It's better to help them to keep the body relaxed and clean, not…

OF: Not overworking the organs.

ZY: Yes, yes.

OF: That makes sense.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: And so have you actually been there when someone has died?

ZY: No, because - not always, but usually - most of the time, most people pass away in the night, when we wouldn’t be there.

OF: Ah. Really?

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Do we know why?

ZY: It's for different reasons. If we say medically, we can see it’s because the organs usually don't work so actively as in the day.

OF: Yes. So they rest even more. So that's when people would normally die.

ZY: Yeah. And if we talk about something not related to science, sometimes we also believe that lots of people just don't want to pass away when their families are still beside them.

OF: Yes.

ZY: It happens, yeah. If the family members have been there taking very good care of this patient, then the patient would maybe prefer to pass away alone. Because dying people don't really want to die when it's so noisy and loud around. Because the last thing the body will lose is hearing. Even if you see on the machine that the heart has stopped beating, they can still hear.

OF: They can still hear!

ZY: For several minutes. Yeah, for a further several minutes.

OF: How do you know that?

ZY: It's a science topic, yeah.

OF: Oh.

ZY: It's very heavy for them, if people then start to cry loudly, you know. It's very very sensitive.

OF: Right, so if you are with someone when they're dying, the best thing to do would just be to continue being calm after their heart stopped.

ZY: Go on talking to this patient, like “Mom, I will always love you. And don't worry, I will take care of myself”.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Things like that. Instead of like, just “Ah mom! Come back! Why?” Things like that.

OF: Wow, fascinating. I mean, this whole conversation has been fascinating, Zhou Yan, I really appreciate hearing from you, not just because we're here in China and this topic is so interesting here, but just as a human. We actually could be having this conversation in any country, right?

ZY: Yes. If it's possible, maybe someday this will even be my job. At the current moment it’s still not possible, but maybe someday in the future.

OF: Right. As it becomes more accepted, this could become something which is a career. And you could actually spread it in a more professional way across China.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: I support you. I hope that you will end up doing that. It's obviously your passion.

ZY: Thank you. Yeah, it's my passion.

OF: And where can people find out about this?

ZY: The WeChat account, it's only available in Chinese.

OF: Of course.

ZY: Yeah, it’s called 上海手牵手生命关爱发展中心 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu Shēngmìng Guān'ài Fāzhǎn Zhōngxīn]. If you just look up 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu] on WeChat, you will find us

OF: Yes. So 上海手牵手 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu].

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Thanks Zhou Yan, we will move on to Part 2.

ZY: OK.

[Part 2]

OF: Part 2.

ZY: OK.

OF: Are you ready?

ZY: Yes.

OF: We’ve had a very serious conversation, let’s see if we'll have a little more lightness.

ZY: Let’s see.

OF: Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily: What is your favourite China-related fact?

ZY: Well, my favourite fact is actually we have toilets where you squat, you know. You have to sit. This is really my favourite part. Because the public toilets in Europe are also not that clean,  and then it's really difficult… I mean, it's a special topic of for women, but…

OF: Aha.

ZY: I really love it here in China, that we have it.

OF: Because you squat, and you don't have to sit on something.

ZY: Yes.

OF: I think in some parts of Europe, there are still squat toilets.

ZY: Oh, really?

OF: Yeah.

ZY: OK. I have never seen that.

OF: I think… well… See, this is where I'm not sure either, because I haven't lived in Europe now for 20 years. But I remember when I was travelling around France for example, even in France they had squat toilets.

ZY: How many years ago was that?

OF: Yeah, maybe 20. So I don't know.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Interesting. And do you think in China, there will always be squat toilets? Or do you think that they will start to phase them out?

ZY: I think there will always be here.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: It’s a good thing.

OF: OK. Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?

ZY: Yes. It’s ‘无常 [wúcháng]’.

OF: 无常 [wúcháng], so 无 [wú] as in ‘not’?

ZY: Uh-huh.

OF: 常 [Cháng] as in ‘often’?

ZY: Yes, or ‘regularity’. 无常 [Wúcháng].

OF: Yeah, so what does that mean?

ZY: I tried to look it up in a dictionary. I don't know if there is really a very precise translation, but I think it means ‘randomness’ and ‘nothing is certain’.

OF: Oh, I see. Oh, I like that. As a concept?

ZY: Yes. Our founder always loved to say that ‘life is flowing’. This is the thing that I got to realise after I came back from Austria to Shanghai. Nothing worked in the first three years. Relationship broke up; job was not that OK; and after 12 years, again back to the family quarrelling because this was the way that we communicated with each other; and my health also some problems. And after that I read some psychology books, and also Buddhism, and then I started to realise that this is actually a feature of life.

OF: Ah.

ZY: And the thing is not about to rely on things like luck, or horoscope things. Everything comes back to myself. Actually, it's all in my hand.

OF: Yeah, I like this concept. 无常 [Wúcháng].

ZY: Yes. To realise that life is just random and nothing's for certain. Because it's normal, humans always want to find a way to explain the whole universe with several simple rules.

OF: Yes.

ZY: Because this makes us feel safe. But I don't think it's possible. And for me, it's easier if I just accept its randomness, and train myself to get so strong that I can just deal with it.

OF: I love it.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Thank you.

ZY: You’re welcome.

OF: Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats: What is your favourite destination within China?

ZY: Oh, to be honest, I haven't been to so many cities in China. I think maybe most expats have visited more cities than I have. But my favourite is 紫金山 [Zǐjīnshān] in 南京 [Nánjīng].

OF: Ah.

ZY: It's a mountain in 南京 [Nánjīng] city.

OF: OK. Is it the one which has the observatory on the top?

ZY: Yes.

OF: Ah.

ZY: But my favourite part is not the mountain. It's rather actually at the bottom of the mountain. There are plain trees.

OF: Yes.

ZY: Like we also have in Shanghai.

OF: Yes, yes.

ZY: But - I don't know if they have another species in 南京 [Nánjīng] - it's all so old and so big, like they are growing into the sky, and building a very beautiful avenue.

OF: Yes.

ZY: It’s really amazing. It's very high. Have you been there?

OF: Do you know what, I've only been to 南京 [Nánjīng] once. It was when my father came to Shanghai to visit me, and we did a weekend away together 南京 [Nánjīng]. And we have walked exactly where you're talking about.

ZY: Ah, in the mountain, or..?

OF: Yeah, at the bottom.

ZY: At the bottom.

OF: At the bottom of the mountain.

ZY: Ah OK.

OF: Yeah yeah, exactly.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: And it was like this forest, but it's just 30 minutes from downtown 南京 [Nánjīng].

ZY: Yes.

OF: Because here in Shanghai, you have to really go three hours to find anything like that.

ZY: Yeah, you are right.

OF: That’s why I think 南京 [Nánjīng] is a more livable city in some ways. In fact, a Chinese lady in Season 01, Nini Sum, she actually said 南京 [Nánjīng] was her favourite destination. It's her hometown, and she basically was saying the same thing.

ZY: Ah, OK.

OF: So there's a nice connection there.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Hello Nini.

ZY: Hello!

OF: Next question. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?

ZY: What I would miss the most is, of course, my family. Because I'm Chinese.

OF: And of course you are now so much closer to your family.

ZY: Yes.

OF: I guess when you lived in Austria for 12 years, maybe you didn't really miss them so much. But this time it would be different, right?

ZY: You are right.

OF: Mmm. Do they know that? Like, do they really feel the difference in your relationship between then and now?

ZY: It's a good question. I think they know it. Because as what I said before in the first part, in the hospice: the five things we should do, one of them is to apologise. It's very difficult for people to apologise.

OF: Oh my god. Yep.

ZY: In Chinese culture especially, because of this 面子 [miànzi] thing.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: And I'm also aware that sometimes I should really say sorry to my parents, but it's so difficult to say, and I start to do one thing. After we quarrel again, I would just come to my papa or my mama and just hug him or her. It's a ‘sorry’.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: So I think they know it now that I really have them in my heart.

OF: Yes.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Nice answer. And what would you miss the least?

ZY: It's what I just mentioned, the ‘face’. The 面子 [miànzi] thing, which is very famous.

OF: Yeah. I don't think, in three seasons, anyone has really defined 面子 [miànzi]. So can you define it?

ZY: Woah. Of course, it's different from person to person, but the most common situation is maybe that, for example, if your leader at work says something wrong, makes a mistake, and you point it out, he lost his face because he's the leader.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Or generally, for example, in a dating relationship, usually the boys tend to show “I know everything.” And then if you come to a topic that he doesn't know, and yet he tries to go on talking with you about that, and you think "Should I point it out or not?” Yeah, such kind of things are everywhere, actually.

OF: Yes. So what is the answer? In China you basically don't say anything, you just have to nod and say “Mmm, mmm, mmm”.

ZY: Yes. Just don't make it clear that it was wrong.

OF: So actually, you don't like this system.

ZY: I don't like it. Because I've been living in Austria for 12 years. And I studied there, so when I was 19 I went to Austria. And there, the culture is very direct.

OF: Mm-hm.

ZY: When you find out something, and when you think of something, you just speak it out. And I really love it, because it's very efficient. And because it's real.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: When you live your life in China, do you try and blend in some of that Austrian culture into your relationships? Or now have you basically ‘gone native’ back into the Chinese culture?

ZY: It's not that I try to blend in, but I am just like that. And if I act like that, people will notice “OK, Yan is a little bit different”. And then they will have to decide how they react to me.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: And those people who stay, they will be the ones that I feel comfortable with.

OF: I see.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?

ZY: The thing that surprised me the most was that one thing in Shanghai is totally different now: parks and the public toilets.

OF: Right.

ZY: Parks used to always charge entrance fees, when I left China as a child. And the public toilets also charged fees. But now they are all for free. And the public toilets now, I think 9 out of 10 that I've visited, are all very clean.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: Yeah. This really surprised me. This is very important for me.

OF: Hang on. Yeah, this is the second question you've answered which includes toilets.

ZY: This is very important. Yeah.

OF: Hey, you're very practical. Let's talk about death… and ****. Next question, this is from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?

ZY: Currently, my favourite restaurant is called 望蓉城 [Wàngróngchéng].

OF: Ooh.

ZY: It’s snakehead fish fillets in a Chinese sauerkraut soup.

OF: Wait wait wait wait. Start again, what the hell?

ZY: This fish is called snakehead. I looked it up in the dictionary. It's a black fish actually, 黑鱼[hēiyú].

OF: I've never heard of this fish. OK.

ZY: Yeah, this restaurant that does it very well.

OF: Where is it?

ZY: It's a chain, you can find it in lots of places.

OF: All right, I'm gonna look it up.

ZY: I’ll send you the link.

OF: Yes please. Next question, what is the best or worst purchase you have recently made in China?

ZY: When I think back to the last years, I think the best purchase I made was… There used to be a place in the city centre, it was called the ‘Wake Up Dead Experience’.

OF: OK.

ZY: Yes. It’s a small place but very well designed. And they had two price levels, one was 444.

OF: Ah, 四四四 [Sìsìsì].

ZY: Because four is 四 [sì], like ‘die’ in Chinese: ‘死 [sǐ]’.

OF: Yes.

ZY: It’s just a different tone, yeah?

OF: So go on, then let's hear you say “four, death, four, death, four, death.”

ZY: 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ].

OF: Yeah.

ZY: And another prize was 777. 七 [Qī], seven, is also a special number which has to do with the seventh day after someone has passed away, they will come back to see his family again.

OF: Oh I see.

ZY: Yeah, so a small ceremony would be held within the family. On the first seven days, and then on the second seven. If some families are very traditional and take it seriously, it could go on to the seventh seven days, so like 49 days altogether.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: So that was the price of the ticket. They kind of had a game designed, and for each round of the game one person would have to die and leave.

OF: OK.

ZY: And then the people who left would take a slide down, and land into… OK, what's the word? You know where the baby is formed in the…

OF: Oh, womb.

ZY: Huh?

OF: Womb.

ZY: Womb?

OF: Yeah.

ZY: In the womb. And here you get reborn. And then in the womb, you will wait for all the other people to die, and then you would all sit together with the moderator of the game, and she would go through what she thought is important for you. So like we simulated the whole process. It was very interesting. And that's also where I got to know a doctor who was working in children's cancer… how to stay… ‘alleviative’?

OF: Oh, cancer alleviative drugs.

ZY: Alleviative treatment, yes. And there she introduced me to 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].

OF: Oh, so that was how you first started.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: That would be your best purchase, I understand that.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Because that led you to your entire lifestyle now.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: OK, next question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?

ZY: I just sent it to you.

OF: OK. What’s this, can you explain it?

ZY: Do you know this figure? It's Timon.

OF: It’s Disney, right?

ZY: Yeah, from The Lion King.

OF: Yeah, right.

ZY: It's a mongoose actually, dancing with a Hawaiian hula skirt. I really love it.

OF: That's just happy one for you, is it?

ZY: Yes. And not just a happy one. Because in 2021 I met my husband.

OF: Congratulations.

ZY: Thank you. I'd been single for seven years before, yeah I've been waiting for him. He looks very similar to Timon. For me, for me. But in the Chinese horoscope, I am the pig. So he said “Aha OK, then you are Pumbaa." So it has a small story behind it.

OF: I love it. OK, now I need to have a photo of your husband, and then I can compare.

ZY: I will send it to you. He's totally OK with that.

OF: Great. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?

ZY: It’s a Chinese one. And it's called in Chinese ‘那些花儿 [Nàxiē Huāer]’ which means ‘Those Flowers’. The song goes like “Those flowers which I thought would be here forever have all left me, and I don't know where they are now. But it's lucky that I was with them when they blossomed”.

OF: Oh, that's very very ‘you’, that's a very Zhou Yan song.

ZY: Yeah, but it just reminds me of my school time. Because I am a person that usually won’t contacted other people first. Usually I'm waiting for them to contact me.

OF: OK.

ZY: So that's why I've lost my primary school mates, junior high school mates. I have some senior high school mates because they approached me first.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: But I'm just like that. I still think it was a very nice time that I had with them together.

OF: So they're just last flowers.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: Is this a depressing song? Like when you sing it, does everyone start crying?

ZY: No no no. No, it’s just a very beautiful one.

OF: OK, I'll check it out. And finally, this last question comes from JustPod, which is the studio we are sitting in now.

ZY: OK.

OF: What or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?

ZY: Listening to dying people, they will teach you a lot. Dying people have much more wisdom than normal people in your daily life.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Usually people don't take the time to listen to them. Our founder told us when you want to listen to the people, you should put down everything. Because usually when we are listening to each other, I would just think “OK, this is the point I want to note”.

OF: Yeah.

ZY: But then if I put down everything, just listen to you, all my information channels are open, and I can get much more information than I usually get only with my ear, yeah?

OF: Mm-hm.

ZY: This is very helpful.

OF: Mmm.

ZY: Yeah.

OF: What a lovely way to end this conversation. I've been trying to do the same with you, and I've also really learned a lot from you. Thank you so much Zhou Yan.

ZY: You're welcome.

OF: Before I let you leave, the question I will ask you is: Out of everyone you know in China, who would you recommend that I interview in the next season of Mosaic of China?

ZY: I would like to introduce Darsea Liu. She's a professional surfer. Or better to say, she used to be a professional surfer. But now she's engaged in ecology.

OF: OK. So she's gone from surfer to environmental protection, just like you went from working in Austria to now working in volunteer work.

ZY: Yes.

OF: I can see the connection.

ZY: Yeah, totally different now.

OF: What one question would you ask her?

ZY: I would like to ask the questions that you have asked me also, then. What does she believe that she has got the most - up to now - from this change?

OF: Right. So not what she can give, but what has she received?

ZY: Yes.

OF: Mmm, very nice. Thanks again Zhou Yan.

ZY: Thank you.

[Outro]

OF: I hope you enjoyed listening to that as much as I enjoyed making it. Just a couple of quick clarifications, the first Death Café was in the UK, but the person who came up with the idea Bernard Crettaz was himself Swiss. And Zhou Yan also wanted me to make clear that in the hospice they don’t push patients to communicate more deeply with their families, as may have come across in the interview. They really just talk and listen, and if an appropriate topic comes up then they would simply try to make suggestions as part of the natural flow of conversation.

We cover some similar ground on the topics of death and bereavement in another recent episode, the one with the filmmaker Elaine Huang from Season 03 Episode 08, so be sure to dip into that show if you haven’t done so already. And another connection to a previous episode was on the big topic of… Chinese sauerkraut. I also talked about this with the Tourette’s advocate Dajiang, from Season 03 Episode 15. And finally please go online - either to the mosaicofchina.com website or on social media - to see all the images that accompany today’s show, including Zhou Yan’s favourite WeChat sticker of Timon, the mongoose from the Lion King, compared alongside a photo of her husband. I can’t mention The Lion King without reminding you that Season 01 Episode 01 of the show was with Philippe Gas, President of the Disney Resort Shanghai, who also - perhaps unsurprisingly - discussed The Lion King.

As I mentioned at the beginning of today’s episode, there’s a much longer version of my chat with Zhou Yan in the PREMIUM version of the show, at Patreon or Apple Podcast Subscriptions internationally, or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. Here are some clips:

[Clip 1]

ZY: One day I drove 200 kilometres without seeing one person. Sometimes it's good.

OF: Absolutely.

ZY: Yeah.

[Clip 2]

OF: We couldn't really talk to her. But my father started singing, and then she joined in.

ZY: Wow.

[Clip 3]

ZY: A taxi driver who has just lost his wife the day before. But he still has a daughter to raise, so he has to go back to work the next day.

[Clip 4]

ZY: It's not a money earning business, yeah.

OF: No.

ZY: No.

OF: Because it's standardised across the whole of Shanghai.

ZY: Yeah.

[Clip 5]

ZY: You can see maybe fruits, or maybe the things he likes, maybe some Buddhist figures or things like that.

[Clip 6]

ZY: The hospital workers are a difficult topic. Because they are very badly paid.

[Clip 7]

OF: So when you say that that's the thing you want to avoid, I hear you because the last thing we did was argue about “Will I brush my teeth or not?”

[Clip 8]

ZY: After I finished the first sentence, she started to sing the second one with me.

OF: Oh.

[Clip 9]

ZY: They already started to think about these topics, and they want to hear what the others have to say.

OF: Which kind of sounds like you, right?

ZY: Yes, yes.

[Clip 10]

OF: It’s too direct.

ZY: Yes, yes.

OF: Yeah, we have that bull-**** as well.

[End of Audio Clips]

OF: Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. After the music, there are catch-ups with the history professor Chang Chihyun from Season 02 Episode 03 and the playwright Nick Yu from Season 01 Episode 13. Like I said at the top of the show, I’m going to take a break from Mosaic of China for a few weeks, so I’ll see you back again for the next full episode of Season 03 a little later. All that remains for me to say until then is: I love you, I’m sorry, I forgive you, thank you, and goodbye.

[Catch-Up Interview 1]

OF: Chihyun!

CC: Hi.

OF: Good to see you, man.

CC: It's very nice to see you too.

OF: You are looking very fit.

CC: I want to lose another 20 pounds.

OF: Right!

CC: Yeah.

OF: This was a lockdown plan, or..?

CC: It was an accidental/lockdown plan. Since I had a lot of time, I thought it was a great idea for me to experiment and try to adapt my diet.

OF: That's incredible. So really, this is an entire lifestyle change?

CC: I think it will be a lifestyle change. I still drink. I still eat meat. But the frequency…

OF: Yeah.

CC: …Is not as high any more.

OF: Yeah. Well, you were quite famous for the way that you handled your relationships in the university. So people who don't know you, you are a professor at Jiaotong University.

CC: Yes.

OF: In the Humanities Department.

CC: Humanities School and History Department.

OF: Oh, got it.

CC: Yeah.

OF: And part of the way that you communicated was through taking out your students and having a drink together, having a nice meal together. So it's gonna be interesting to see how that changes in the future.

CC: That will be rough, right? I think I really have to find a better way, right? Yeah.

OF: Well let's talk about life in the university. Because it used to be an area where it was quite international, I used to bump into many international people. But of course, many people on student visas still can't return to China.

CC: No they can't.

OF: So as an update to our episode, what has happened in the last 18 months?

CC: I think it is the biggest pity, I have to say. Because the biggest change is, every corner in the world is not globalised anymore. Especially universities are particularly cautious about whether or not we should let foreign students come into the campus. This caused a lot of damage to our academic performance and advancement. Academics mean controversies, controversies bring in advancement. It is necessary. We have to respect - and we have to listen to - some different ideas. But if we cannot meet people in person, trust me they're not going to tell you what they really think over Zoom or Tencent Conference, they're not going to do that.

OF: Yeah.

CC: You really have to get some drinks first.

OF: Yeah.

CC: So I think that is the biggest problem. And to be very honest, it's deeply worries me. I think it would be a very difficult time for China to attract international talent. Some people will say that the good part is that we can attract Chinese talents who have got a foreign degree, back to China.

OF: True.

CC: And they can fill in the gap. I don't agree. Because we'd just recruit a bunch of losers. They can't find a proper job in the UK or in the USA or in Japan. That's the ugly truth.

OF: The people who want to come back so soon are the ones who can't find something there.

CC: Yes.

OF: Mmm.

CC: The reason why I understand this, is because Taiwanese universities experienced exactly the same thing 20 years ago.

OF: See, this is why it's useful to talk to an historian, right? You can see the patterns.

CC: Yeah.

OF: Especially your particular field is in the history of international trade, right?

CC: Yes.

OF: So that is so relevant to global geopolitics these days. Are we learning from the past? We're not really learning, are we?

CC: The only thing I can say we learn from history is that human beings don't learn from history.

OF: Yes.

CC: Too bad.

OF: Yeah.

CC: Too dumb.

OF: It’s also about policies that they have enacted, which have had an effect on education in the last couple of years. And I think it's mainly been in primary and secondary education, I believe. Has there been anything which has affected tertiary education?

CC: Right now we can't see the impact. But I think it will influence the university education. I think one of the biggest parts - and probably you have heard - is that the primary school or elementary schools don't teach English any more. I understand why. Nowadays, when you see a 10-year-old child, they would spend something like 10 hours a week to study Chinese, but they spend like 30 hours on English.

OF: Thirty?

CC: 3-0.

OF: Versus ten on Chinese.

CC: Yeah.

OF: Seriously.

CC: This sort of debate has been discussed for over 120 years since the signing of the Boxer Protocol.

OF: Is that 1905? No.

CC: 1900.

OF: 1900.

CC: Yeah. And then people would say that we should stick to the traditional scholarship, 旧学 [jiùxué]. Or the new - or advanced - scholarship, 新学 [xīnxué]. That sort of debate can last forever. And of course, you would think of the best way is that we should value both. But trust me, my brain is not good enough. I can only focus on very few things, right? So I understand why the government is worried. Because I am worried. How about literary Chinese? Personally, I think it is very beautiful. How about traditional poetry? But they don't really care, they care about English. So I understand why.

OF: Mmm.

CC: But you know, the government wants to do something right. But when they made the idea into a policy, that would go to a very extreme way. And then no one can stop it.

OF: That's so well said. Yeah. Because you can see the intention, but then everything is so heavy-handed when it comes to the implementation.

CC: Yeah.

OF: There are certain provinces where you always see the implementation is 100%

CC: Or 120%.

OF: Right! They go overboard.

CC: Yes.

OF: When you were teaching me about sinology and history, we were talking about a time when in the West there would be rumours of the East, and that's how the first ideas of China permeated into the Western world. It kind of feels like we're going back to that situation, because so few people can actually step foot in China, all I hear from the West is like “Oh, what's happening in that distant mystical land of China?” I do hope that at some point, there will be a recrossing of people from one side to the other, because it really sometimes feels like we're on a different planet here. That's the thing where I hope people like you can still try to bridge that gap.

CC: I think this is the reason why I took the job of the Director of the Modern Chinese Studies course, which is an international-taught programme. China has a lot of difficult issues. We have to be understanding first, and then we can make our decision or verdict extremely cautiously. Misunderstanding can be caused by no understanding.

OF: Mmm. I am very grateful that I met you, and that you have been my professor.

CC: Thank you very much.

OF: And that you, of course, came on to the podcast. It was great to talk to you then, and it's great to see you now. I hope that we will continue to stay in touch.

CC: We will. Thank you very much indeed.

[Catch-Up Interview 2]

OF: Nick, good to see you.

NY: Nice to meet you.

OF: I think you have a tough time today to speak to me in English, because you don't use English so much these days.

NY: Yeah, for almost three years I haven’y used any English.

OF: Ach.

NY: But sometimes I teach English with my son at home.

OF: To practice his schoolwork.

NY: Yeah, yeah. That is the only chance for me.

OF: Ah. I’ve put you in a very uncomfortable position today.

NY: I try to get back.

OF: OK. You can do it. Nick, for people who did not listen to our original episode, you are two things.

NY: Mm-hm.

OF: You are a playwright.

NY: Yeah.

OF: And you are the Director of the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre.

NY: Yeah.

OF: So I remember we had a catch-up - that was already, I think, 18 months ago - the catch-up was in ‘COVID One’, now we are ‘COVID Two’

NY: Yeah.

OF: And last time - I wasn't surprised, because you write and write and write - but last time you said that during the first lockdown in 2020, I think you finished five plays. You also finished your PhD?

NY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, I got my memory back.

OF: Yes. So what happened this time? Did you also write many plays?

NY: I wrote three plays. Two of them will be produced this year. But we have several plays that we already have planned to put on the stage. For example, a musical. We want to do 200 performances, almost a half-year run.

OF: Wow.

NY: Yeah. So that is a big plan for our theatre. I think the audience still need the theatre.

OF: Yeah.

NY: They need to go to the theatre in person.

OF: Yeah. It's an intimate, enclosed environment.

NY: Yeah. A private space, to think about situations you’ve never encountered in your life. But you can imagine it in the theatre, in that place. So I think that is why the audience go to the theatre.

OF: Yeah. What about then the content? Because I remember when we talked last time, you said that during 2020 what was popular back then was stand-up comedy.

NY: Yeah, yeah.

OF: Which was quite new in China. What about this time? Have you seen certain content, certain genres, being more popular?

NY: Musicals. Almost every week there’s a new musical coming out. Before, I never thought that would happen. But that suddenly happened. Because musicals from overseas cannot come to China.

OF: Yeah. I mean, I hope it bounces back. And I'm really glad to at least see that you're being productive; there is creativity happening in Shanghai; and there is optimism. At least, let's see what happens in the future.

NY: Yeah.

OF: Thank you so much again, for being part of this Mosaic family.

NY: Thank you.

OF:  I hope that every year we have a chance to say hello.

NY: Thank you. I wish too. Yeah.

OF: Thanks so much Nick.

NY: Thank you.

See here for a full list of transcripts