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[Trailer]

OF: You put all your ‘warts and all’ into your podcast. Like, I know some of the worst things about you, because of your podcast. 

Aric SHANG: Oh ****.

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

But is it really Mosaic of China? Actually no, because as this is the final episode of the year, I've decided to switch it up and put something special in your podcast feed today. It's the audio of a chat from another Shanghai-based English-language podcast called The Honest Drink, hosted by Justin Yang, Howie Goh and Aric Shang. It's called The Honest Drink because they make sure everyone is plied with alcohol during the recording, so the resulting conversation is very uninhibited. The other part that I like about this show is when the three hosts just talk among themselves, because they're all American Chinese guys and it’s interesting to listen in on how they see the world through this specific lens. Mostly I agree 100% with what they say, other times I want to bash their heads together for only seeing things through this lens. But they always do a great job of keeping it real.

Let me also offer some more context, the recording was made a few weeks ago, just before I started the mammoth task of recording the 30 new episodes for Season 03 of Mosaic of China. So you'll hear that I was stressed out about that. At one point Aric says that he tries to keep outwardly optimistic as a way of countering his more pessimistic inner voice. And of course, the same can be said for me and for Mosaic of China, which has specifically been designed to side-step negativity and to focus on people, culture and lifestyle. What you'll hear in this episode is much more of that inner voice that I don't usually share, which isn't just because of the effort of producing this podcast, it's also to do with the crunch point that many international people in China are facing right now. In COVID times, it has been incredibly complicated to leave and come back to China, so after two years of playing 'wait and see', many people are deciding to leave for good, including foreigners who have been here for decades, even including some mainland Chinese who are separated from loved ones overseas. That's not to say that they dislike China, far from it, we've all been grateful to be here. It's just that we are all having a taste what it meant to be émigrés in the past - or indeed refugees in the present - when leaving your home country meant that you don't have the luxury of returning. Until now we've always had the privilege of having the best of both worlds. But now, none of us know whether we're living in a COVID phase, or a COVID era, so there are difficult choices to be made. Having said that, difficult choices are still choices, so we're still privileged in that sense. And to end on an even more optimistic note, as I speak today I have now recorded 18 of the new episodes, so I'm hopefully on track to launch the new season in Spring of next year.

Having offered my respect to Justin, Howie and Aric, I've also disrespected them because I've edited the original audio by beeping out the worst of the swearing, and chopping off about 30 minutes of the conversation. So if you want to hear the original, please go and find episode #99 of The Honest Drink podcast wherever you're listening to this. And while you're there, go ahead and subscribe. Here's wishing you all a great end to the year, and I'll be back again with the next compilation episode from Season 02 in January.

[Main]

Justin YANG: We got a fun one today. Our guest is the host of the Mosaic of China podcast. It's a popular and wonderful podcast with a diverse range of guests exploring the lives of people who are making their mark in China. We share many laughs along the way. It was such a great time talking to our guest. So without further ado, please welcome Oscar Fuchs. 

JY: Oh, 23

OF: I mean, that means nothing to me.

JY: it means it's good. 

OF: It means it's good.Yeah. But if it's too good, then don’t waste it on me. That's also the issue.

JYL You’re too polite, Oscar. You’re too polite.

OF: I’m English. We're not really polite. We just use it as a weapon.

JY: Here, make your own gin and tonic, however you'd like to make it.

OF: Do you have any lime, by the way?

JY: I do not. 

OF: OK. 

JY: I’m sorry. Ooh, what is this amateur production that we’re running here?

OF: Yeah man. A gin and tonic without lime. All right.

JY: No no wait, hold on. Let's do the whiskey first. 

OF: OK.

JY: Oscar, you say you hate whiskey? Is that right?

OF: Oh are we already recording? 

Aric SHANG: Yeah, we are. 

JY: Oh, we’re rolling.

Howie GOH: We are hot.

OF: Wait, what did I say until now? I have never been able to drink whiskey. I've tried. It's one of those things where I know I should like it. And everyone's a connoisseur with whiskey. So I keep on trying to train myself. And each time I end up failing. So let’s see if it works this time.

AS: So what is it about it?

OF: I can't tell you why. Because I quite like strong tastes. 

HG: 重口味 [Zhòng kǒuwèi].

OF: Yeah. I like strong 口味 [kǒuwèi].

JY: Strong 口味 [kǒuwèi]!

HG: Yeah bút 重口味 [zhòng kǒuwèi] can go a lot of ways.

OF: Well, I don't know. Let's see what let's see what happens.

JY: Cheers.

HG: Cheers to a shot of whiskey.

OF: Cheers.

OF: I mean, it's not bad.

JY: It’s not bad right?

[OF coughs]

JY: There it is, there it is. 

OF: Oh dude. 

AS: Like a bong hit. 

JY: Yeah exactly. 

OG: Oh, my mouth is on fire, guys

HG: Feels good though, doesn’t it?

JY: That it wasn't bad though. I had kind of a honey finish I liked. 

HG: Yeah, it's nice.

OF: How would that rank for you guys? You're the connoisseurs here.

JY: Well actually we're really not that knowledgable.

AS: We're just the consumers.

OF: Beautiful. I feel slightly victimised. But thank you very much.

JY: Make your drink. You can do a gin and tonic.

OF: Thank you, I will.

JY: We're gonna do some rum today.

AS: I always like it when we go back to the roots of Honest Drink 

JY: What’s the roots?

AS: Well the roots were, in the very beginning we had a little bit of a ritual.

JY: With the drink?

AS: With the drink, bringing it out, what we're going to drink, tasting it a little bit. 

JY: Yeah. All right. Well, cheers. 

HG: Good stuff. 

OF: I’m happy. 

JY: Well Oscar, first of all, welcome to the show.

OF: Thank you. I'm absolutely honoured to be here.

JY: I'm so excited that you're here. You do amazing work with Mosaic of China. 

OF: Well, thank you. 

JY: It’s a different vibe for me whenever I can get another podcaster onto the show. We kind of started off at the same time, right?

OF: Right.

JY: The last time we spoke, we kind of realised our podcasts, we started around the same time.

OF: Yes. Around summer. 2019, right? 

JY: Yeah.

OF: Yeah.

JY: So it's really great to have you here to share this journey with you.

OF: Totally.

JY: And to get your take on it as well, because we're kind of from the same tribe as podcasters. And I really appreciate that.

OF: Oh I feel it, man. I am so excited. And maybe I speak for your listeners too. Because just being here - in the exalted room where you do your podcast - it's like being in the room with friends that I've known for a long time, which I think is the way that you've been able to produce your podcast, which I'm supremely jealous of.

JY: The first time I met you, I feel like there was this mutual respect. Like, podcasts in Shanghai, the bar was Mosaic of China. 

OF: Oh, dude. 

JY: Yeah, that's the one I knew, I heard of first. 

OF: Oh, OK.

JY: And so I had the impression that you were around for a really long time. So to me, it was like Mosaic of China was kind of like the bar set here locally, in terms of podcasting.

OF: Well, that's very kind. I think it's a function of knowing how to make myself look bigger than I actually am. I think when I was actually in business, that was part of what we did as well. Like, you are a small minnow, but you learn the tricks of how to make yourself look like the big shark. 

JY: You swim like a big shark. 

OF: You swim like a big shark. I mean, that's part of my delusion, in fact.

JY: Well is it kind of like the same philosophy as ‘fake it until you make it’?

OF: It is, sort of. But then you can't fake it to the extent that there's there's nothing underneath, you're just some soufflé. There has to be some substance. So you can't say something which you're not. But you can project an image that's larger than your actual size, that’s what I'm going for. But again, I don't think I do a good job of that. I think you guys are killing it. Like, I think you have a lot more support than I have. And you were under the radar for me, because I spent most of my time in my cave, just doing my project. And then when I found out about you guys, I was like “OK, what the hell is this about? Let me listen to a few of these things”. And I got into it, despite myself. Despite myself, I really got into your podcast. And I’m not supposed to like your podcast. I think you and I talked about this when we met. Like, on the surface, I do not like the idea of your podcast. It's an hour and a half long, it's too **** long. There's three dudes talking about **** in a room drinking bloody whiskey, I can't drink whiskey either. I'm like “I don't know why these guys are popular, but I'll dip into a few episodes.” And I was hooked. So I know exactly the feeling of your listeners. Because for me, just feeling the energy of your conversations, I felt the realness there. And that was what, I think, I was jealous of. Because I think a lot about my podcast, it's of course real. But it's a lot more measured. It's a lot more…

JY: Controlled.

OF: Controlled. There is a very specific format, which I like. I like having a format to play with. And then you having this freestyle, no-holds-barred chat. It works. And actually it's at the heart of what podcasting should be about. So when I listen to you, I feel like “Ah, that’s what I miss in my podcast”. It's that energy that you bring every single time. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm actually talking with the listener in mind. I'm sure people out there are nodding, going "I wish I was in that room talking with the guys too”. Because I feel like, in every conversation you've had, I would’ve liked to have been in that room saying “Oh, yeah, yeah. And my point is this. My point is that.” So, yeah, I'm not sure what I do lends itself to the same informal way that people outside can be part of the actual experience.

JY: But the most surprising thing after having met you was that you are such a bright personality. Right? Like, you are so dynamic, there’s so much to you, that I honestly - like, I'm going to tell you straight to your face - I feel like it doesn't come out in your podcast, right?

OF: Right.

JY: And you give too much ground, I feel, to your guests. 

OF: Yeah.

JY: Well, because they're interesting people, number one. But I feel like there’s so much you can add, just knowing you, meeting you in person, and seeing this personality. I feel like there's so much charisma you can still add to your show, that probably your listeners don't know unless they've met you.

OF: Right. I mean, I can't agree with that, because I don't know how to take that compliment. But yeah, I mean, it is what I've been struggling with. And this is why I'm keen to talk to you today, actually. Because I’m in the process now where I'm in the middle of two seasons. So I'm producing my next season now. And I have this space to re-think “Well, how do I approach the next season? In what way do I carry on doing? And in what way do I slightly change things?" So yeah, this conversation’s happening at the right time? To what extent should I inject more from myself? But the alternate thing is, to me it's an exercise in humility, in some way. Because I do have quite a healthy ego. And that's not something I particularly like putting out there. Which is why I like you guys, because you put all your ‘warts and all’ into your podcast. Like, I know some of the worst things about you, because of your podcast. 

AS: Oh ****.

HG: That’s awesome.

OF: But that's the beauty of it. That's the vulnerability that I don't think I quite have the balls to put out, at the moment. Everything I do is authentic. But, you know, we're all in some ways performative, right? You have a work persona, you have a persona which you use with friends. Like, we all know how to act differently in different situations. And so, for me, I did think very carefully about what is the side of me that I will put out, and what I wouldn't. So that's what I think I need to recalibrate, you know. And finding your podcast, getting into it, being reminded about what podcasting is all about, and meeting you guys, all of that is part of the same process. We can learn from each other. It's not about competing, like my podcast versus your podcast. I love your podcast, and I'm proud of mine. It's not a zero sum game, right?

JY: Yeah. 

OF: Yeah.

JY: And it was a very… You know, you were talking about your first reaction, when you first came across us, before you started listening to us. And to be honest, it was a similar reaction on my end. In terms of, like, there is that natural competitiveness, I guess. Especially when we're in a space, and in a place, where It's very niche, right? And so every other podcast that comes out, there’s a little bit of competitiveness. Like all of a sudden, “Who's this guy? Who's this new kid on the block?”

OF: Yeah. 

JY: But then after having met you, I'm so grateful for having met you, and that we can share this and we can work together. And we can even help each other. Like, I honestly don't see you as a competition right now. I see you as a resource. And a help. 

OF: Awesome, me too. Yeah.

JY: You know, and an inspiration in many ways.

OF: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you've already heard, I'm not faking that myself. And yeah, I mean, I've met other podcasters, where I thought I'd have the same conversation. We meet for a drink, and then the other side just shuts down, becomes hostile. And I'm like “What the hell's the point of that?” I just don't understand that. And it's not like I'm not competitive either, like I said.

JY: They don't want to share a trade secrets. 

OF: They don't want to share anything. Yeah. And I'm like “Oh, which studio do you use?” “I'm not telling you.”

JY: Woah. I feel like we were sharing everything the first time we met.

OF: Totally. I mean, we’d had a couple of cocktails too. But no, I mean, that's the spirit in which I reached out to you. Like, I had heard about your podcast, I reached out to all three of you separately. And I've got to say that's where your characters all came out. And I'm looking at you, Aric. Because now it's time to talk about Aric, because…

JY: Because, let's bring some context. When we first met, it was just me and Howie, this is your first time actually meeting Aric.

OF: It is. And it's a pleasure. And we've just had a brief introduction for ten minutes. Out of the three of you, you were the most guarded when I reached out to you. So I think it was Howie first I reached out to, it was like “Hey Howie, I heard your podcast. I'm also a podcaster, we should meet up. You know, we're doing the same thing. Great to know what you're doing.” Justin, it was a bit later, but a similar story. And then Aric, I reached out to you. And you were funny, because your reply… I wish I remembered it, but it was like, “Oh. Hi. Oh, you like the podcast? What's your three favourite episodes from The Honest Drink?”

JY: That’s so him.

OF: So I was like “OK.” No, I mean, I appreciated it, because I could have just been blowing smoke up your ass. Like “What does this guy want?” you know? And you were like “OK, you said that you like it? Prove it”. I was like “OK, you are definitely yourself in the podcast.” Because that's the side that I relate to most 

HB: Yeah, you were saying that you relate to him the most. 

OF: Oh yeah.

HB: You guys are kindred spirits. 

OF: I relate to you the most.

AS: A couple of funny things. No, I could talk all day as well. We've developed a certain chemistry and we're also trying to calibrate as well. I think we have a great thing. Like, we definitely really enjoy doing this. And we've had our ups and downs. And it's been a wild ride for a couple of years. And our feelings about the show, about each other, have evolved over time as well. I mean, really ups and downs. Like I mean, 180 degrees. Like, the first batch of episodes, we didn't really know what we were getting into. And we were trying to find our footing. Recently, as we start that same thought process - right, because we're in about the same part of our journey - It’s like “OK, well, what do we like about this? What do other people like about this? Where do we get our energy?” And spending so much time together, doing something together, inevitably there's going to be much more friction.

OF: OK, you're doing this recalibration. So why are you doing this podcast? Have you figured that out?

AS: Yeah. Once people know you have a podcast, and once you start doing a podcast, inevitably conversations with people in your community will come up about the podcast. Because people will be like “Oh, you have a podcast? What's it about?”

OF: Wait, let me let me interrupt you right there. Are you at the point now where you can say “I'm a podcaster” or “I have a podcast” without feeling like you're a complete wanker?

AS: Yeah, we have big egos. Like…

OF: No but I mean, to meet somebody at a party, and they say “Oh, I've got a podcast.” Like immediately, I would run away. Like “Oh, you're that person". 

JY: Yeah.

OF: That’s one wanker in every party, and I'm that wanker now.

AS: I appreciate your view on that. And I suppose this goes back to some of your earlier very complimentary thoughts. It’s that the show is a metaphor for life, the show’s a journey that shows a way that we're going to improve as human beings.

OF: Please don’t improve. I like your weaknesses. 

AS: There’s so many of them.

JY: I think that's what the thing is about the show, right? 

OF: Yeah.

JY: Like, it's therapeutic in the sense that honesty is a very tough… It's tough. And it's scary. To be honest, we don't always achieve that. We're not always successful with that, even on our show. But I think for me, the driving force behind - at least, I'll speak for myself - behind doing this podcast is the constant attempt to achieve that honesty. 

OF: Hmm.

JY: Whether we fail or succeed, hey. But at least we're attempting - and we're genuinely attempting - to do that, no matter what kind of conversation we're having. And that to me - combined with a genuine curiosity - is always kind of like my North Star. Whenever I'm thinking like, “Oh, what is the show about for me?”

HG: I'm here for the alcohol. So I'm just here to drink. I don't know. But I mean, one thing that I've always kept harping on about, and I always still bring up, is our backgrounds. Of being American, but also Chinese, and the complexity of having both sides. 

OF: Yeah.

HG: So that, to me, is always the crux. Whenever we have conversations, I'm always constantly trying to think from that perspective. What makes us different from everybody else? I mean, you want to talk about complexity to life, I’m sure there are thousands of podcasts out there to talk about the complexity of life. You want to talk about curiosity and stuff like that, there are thousands of podcasts that talk about curiosity. But I can't name many podcasts that come from our perspective, combining all that.

OF: Totally. Yeah, I think that's it. That's it, in a nutshell. I think it combines the content, and you guys's identity. Because that’s the two circles of the Venn diagram which you inhabit. I mean, I'm also conscious of that, because I'm a white dude in Asia. And I've got a podcast called Mosaic of China. So I've got to be very careful with the identity side when I do my podcast. I try and keep my guests to a minimal when it comes to other white guys, because it’s not a good look to have two white guys talking about China. And that's another thing where actually you have an inbuilt advantage, just with your identities. Where you can talk to anyone - you can have a whole parade of white guys in - and you still are diverse because of you three. Whereas I'm always conscious of that. 

JY: Interesting. 

OF: Yeah, totally, totally. Part of my project is to have as diverse a slate of guests as possible.

JY: So do you have like a white guy quota? In terms of, it’s kinda like a China film quota?

OF: I basically do. I have a ‘Diversity Audit’, I call it. Because I can look at the whole season. So I do seasons of 30 episodes. And it's on purpose, so that I can look at that season, and I can say “OK, how many Chinese people do I have?” I try and get usually 10 out of 30 to be mainland Chinese. And then out of the remaining 20, how do I split that in terms of nationality? Then I take a look at it again, and I go “OK, that's just the identity side. What about what it is that they do?” So I look and say “OK, how many do I have from the world of business? How many from arts, how many from science, how many from academia?” And I make sure that that diversity is pretty well looked after. And then male/female, I have 50% male, 50% female, that's something which I will not negotiate on. So if you look at my podcasts, it’s literally boy, girl, boy, girl, boy, girl. And then it comes down to LGBT as well, I have LGBT representation. You wouldn't know it to listen to it, but one in five of my guests are LGBT, or queer in some way. We don't talk about it, it’s not an issue. 

JY: It's not the focus, right? 

OF: It’s not the focus. But it's an underlying ethos in terms of what I'm doing, just to kind of riff off what you just said about your podcast. it's about celebrating the diversity of the human experience, as well as the fact that there is a universality. It's not about actually saying “Oh, you're different”. It's about saying “You're different. And we're all the same”. I can enjoy the differences, and I can poke at the differences. And that's interesting. But ultimately, the human experience is exactly the same. And it doesn't have to be Mosaic of China, it could be a Mosaic of Mozambique, and it would be the exact same experience. Yeah.

JY: I love that. So, your turn to answer the question, Oscar.

OF: You see, guys, I managed to actually interview you guys on your show. 

JY: You flipped the tables for a moment.

OF: It’s all a deflection tactic, because I don't have the answer either. 

JY: Yeah. 

OF: My situation is slightly different to yours. I started my podcast after I'd sold my company. So I had a headhunting company for 10 or 11 years, I managed to sell my entire share without being needed to stay with the company beyond the sale. Which was quite rare, to actually be able to walk away. And it happened at a time that I wasn't expecting it. And I never really had a Plan B. Like “OK, I've sold my company now.” If I was a true entrepreneur, I would have set up another company. But I realised “No, I don't want to do that. In fact, I'm quite allergic to the entire endeavour.” So there was a bit of the "What do I want to do that makes me happy. But what also can I do that keeps me relevant”. That was the ego side. And it's not just the ego, it's also what I enjoy. Which is to be in the traffic of ideas. I think that's what I liked about being a headhunter. And I specifically headhunted Heads of HR. So that always meant that I could meet somebody from the tech sector one meeting, it could be pharmaceuticals the next meeting, it could be artistic the next one. So I was always kept curious during my 10/11 years as a headhunter. And I wanted to somehow have something that could emulate that without the trappings of headhunting which I did not like. And there were quite a few at that stage, I mean I was just burnt out. It's a long way of answering that question. You know, I don't want it to become something which I don't have control of. You know, something where it's a monster which then I have to just keep on feeding, somehow. And I know you guys go through this, right? Like “Oh ****, I’ve got another episode coming up. We've got no guest, we've got nothing planned, like what the hell do we do?” And suddenly is like “Wait, this is supposed to be fun. Like, why am I putting pressure on myself?” So I'm in that stage right this very moment, when you're interviewing me. This is probably why it's on my mind. Because I've got a lot going on right now, which has started to stress me out. And so now I'm thinking “What the hell am I doing? Why am I stressing myself out?" I've got it into my head that I will do a big tour of China, and interview all the people who are coming up in the next season who are outside of Shanghai. I want to interview them all in person.

JY: On the road?

OF: On the road, face to face.

JY: Cool.

OF: That gives me a different perspective of China. It's not meant to be ‘Mosaic of Shanghai’.

JY: Yeah. 

OF: And then… here’s where it gets really wonky. Because if you have two good ideas, sometimes they can clash, and it becomes one big stupid **** idea. And that's kind of what's happened now. Because I had another idea. So in my podcast, I have a second part of every interview where I ask everyone the same ten questions. So there's a freestyle part at the beginning. And then there's a formulaic part in the second half. 

JY: Yeah, like the Rapid Round.

OF: It’s the Rapid Round. I love it, because you get a very different style in those two parts. And then you can compare how thirty different people in the season answer the same question, from their different backgrounds, different perspectives. And that's great to compare. I had the idea “Oh, you know what, I could try and get sponsors for those ten questions.” So the question on “What's your favourite destination in China,” I could have a travel agent sponsor that question and say “Question 2 - brought to you by ‘blah, blah, blah’- is…” And so that was a great idea. But now, I've got three days before I start the bloody interviews. And so I was writing a proposal about sponsorship - which I've never done - and reaching out to people saying “Hey, what about this for an idea?” With no proven track record, and stressing myself out like an idiot. When I go to my first interview, what do I say? Do I actually have to ask two different versions of the questions? One if I get this sponsor, one if I don’t get this sponsor? What the hell am I gonna do? And I haven't worked it out. And I'm just sat there going, “This is a weekend, and I'm stressed out sending proposals out. Why am I doing that?” And a part of that is the vestigial business side of me, which means I can't help but create something out of this project. And I'm thinking “Why am I doing that? That's not why I started”. And yet I need it almost as a kind of ‘proof of concept.’ That, if I can get more buy-in, then it proves the concept more to me. And I'm thinking “Is that why I'm doing it?”

JY: Does that go back to your ego? Is that the ego speaking? 

OF: I think it is. But it's also… I’ll totally you what it also is. It is because I'm proud of the content, and I need to find, I need to find creative ways for people to amplify my content. 

JY: Yes. 

OF: And that still is, I hope, what drives me. You know, when I, when I lie in bed and question myself, like “Why am I doing it?” I hope it's that latter explanation, and not so much the ego side. 

JY: Yeah. 

OF: So, part of my psyche is to overcomplicate things.

JY: Sounds like… Don’t take this the wrong way. It sounds like it's really tough being you, in the sense that there's this duality to you.

OF: Yes.

JY: And they're conflicting, and they're constantly bumping up against each other. Because everything - that you're saying that brings you stress and pressure now - was all brought on by yourself, seeking them out. 

OF: Mm hmm. Totally.

JY: So it's this constant tug of war.

OF: Oh, you are watching a mid-life crisis before your eyes.

JY: I was gonna bring that up. 

OF: Oh, I’m a walking mid-life crisis. I mean, OK, let me tell you what this is. Because when I talked to you before about when you meet somebody at a party, and are you confident to say that you have a podcast without feeling that you are a wanker, right? Imagine if, when you meet somebody at a party, and the answer is “I’m retired”. Like, that's the stuff that I'm dealing with, because that actually is my status. I've sold my company, and I'm basically not going to work again. I'm retired. And when you meet somebody at a party, and they said they're retired, I mean, “Why are you here? You might as well just be dead. What relevance do you have?” You know? So I think going to absolute irrelevant obscurity is, to me, a scary chasm to look into. And I think that is the conflict, the conflict is I have this amazing luxury of doing what I want. And at the same time, I want to remain relevant.

JY: And still have value to society.

OF: It’s the value to society, yeah. It's kind of “Why are we doing anything?” When you are not defined by what you do, then actually, who are you? 

JY: Yeah.

OF: These are the big questions that you don't have time to ask yourself while you're busy working, none of you have really done that, I’m sure. You are what you're doing, and you’re a podcaster on top, you have multiple identities.

HG: I can guarantee like, if the average person would come up to you - who’s a worker, right? - he’ll come to you, like “Oh my god, I'm so jealous of you. You're retired? I mean, you have no worries, right?”

OF: I mean, I have to accept that. I mean, of course, I've created all the bull**** myself. 

Intrinsically, you’re absolutely right. And I have to keep on saying that. I have to keep on saying that. But I'm a total idiot. And I won't take that as the gift that it is. I will overcomplicate things, in a way that is exactly why I relate to Aric. Because Aric is - out of the three of you - the least happy-go-lucky. You're the person who over-thinks, over-questions. And that's why I really feel for you, because I'm sure if you were in my position, you'd be just as gnarled up as I am.

HG: I feel like we should definitely bring that up, because Aric was not there when we were together talking. And you did say that, like you felt this relationship with Aric. And you brought up your Excel, and you were like “I wish I could show Aric the Excel that I made”.

OF: Oh, I should’ve brought it.

JY: Aric can pull out many Excels right now.

OF: Oh, I would love to compete with you, with the number of worksheets I have for the podcast. The workflows, and they're all colour-coded… Oh my god, they're beautiful.

JY: Aric’s getting competitive now, he's like thinking “You don't have more than me, Oscar.”

OF: Oh.

AS: What I was thinking in my head, number one is like, your inner voice is really loud. Just like mine is, just like all of us. But your inner voice is really, really loud. It's telling you all these things. And sometimes it's telling you some great things. like “Oh Oscar, you're great”. And then sometimes your inner voice is telling you “You're not good enough. You're not doing enough, what you're doing is not enough.” And this whole notion of being relevant, it's almost like your inner voice is reflecting your own insecurities. Like, that other person actually doesn't give a ****, potentially right? But you're like “Oh, I'm not relevant to myself,” almost. It's not that other person, right? At what point did achieving things and being relevant… When did that start mattering to you? Because I could pinpoint when it started mattering to me. I mean, it was like five years old, or six years old. So at what point did it matter to you?

OF: The status of being a successful business owner was quite important. For the reasons that Justin, you pointed out right at the beginning of our conversation. Which is, I am a silly, ridiculous person. 

JY: I didn't say all those things.

OF: Well, basically, that's the way I'm projecting my own views. 

JY: That’s the way you took it.

OF: I’m basically the person who will not take anything seriously. And so I enjoyed the juxtaposition of being that person and then somebody later on saying “Oh, but he owns his own business. And is successful.” And I quite enjoyed that status part, because it offset my ridiculousness. The silliness, which I just can't help projecting.

AS: Why do you feel like you need that validation? Was there some point where you were you were being silly, where it wasn't appropriate for the moment? 

OF: Oh totally.

AS: Why can't you just be silly?

OF: Because I think I'm good at subverting the expectation. So I quite like being silly in a business context, where the expectation is that you're going to do a serious talk here. Like you're a presenter at this conference, and you're going to make a joke about poo? Everyone laughs, because it's subverting expectations.

AS: Yeah. Were you the class clown?

OF: I wasn't the class clown. No, no, no, not at all.

JY: But you didn’t want to conform. Like, you're not for conformity.

OF: I'm quite a conformist. 

YJ: Are you? What a paradox.

OF: It's a total paradox. I'm a conformist trapped in a non-conformist body.

JY:  It's like Jekyll and Hyde with you. 

HG: A walking contradiction.

OF: But that's why this project, it really it speaks to what I am. And there is a lot of complexity behind it, absolutely.

HG: Yeah, we were quite impressed when you were explaining how you organise your shows and, and each season, you know, based off of all the different tabs and etc, etc. I mean, that just shows that it's actually the ‘Mosaic of Oscar’, you know. It’s not the Mosaic of China. 

JY: No.

HG: It’s the Mosaic of Oscar. Oscar’s got a lot going on here.

OF: It’s very specifically curated, yes.

JY: Yeah. 

OF: And if there's any political aspect to what I'm doing, it is that. I am actually quite passionate about showing people that diversity is a good thing. 

JY: Yeah. 

OF: You know what I mean?

JY: Well, hence the name ‘Mosaic’, right? It has to fit the DNA of what you're all about.

OF: Do you know what, so ‘Mosaic’ wasn't the first name that I came up with.

JY: Oh well what was it, what was the first name?

OF: I had a really good idea, but it ended up being racist. 

HG: Oh, you’ve got to share it now.

JY: Yeah, what’s this?

OF: In America, you have a game called ‘Telephone’, right?

JY: Yeah. 

OF: The idea is that I whisper something into your ear. 

JY: Yeah.

OF: It gets passed on, and then the person at the end will say something, and it will end up having been completely different to what was first said, right? Everyone's nodding. 

JY: Yeah.

OF: In England, that is called ‘Chinese Whispers’. 

HG: Oh.

JY: Why is it called Chinese Whispers?

OF: Well, it comes back from, I think, when we were doing the Opium Wars. This is the British, right? And it was in the 清 [Qīng] Empire, when the 清 [Qīng] Empire was in disarray. And it was, like, how the mandarins of the Qing Empire would communicate, and they would get garbled up, from one mandarin to the other mandarin. And so it was, you know how when you're at war - or when you’re just generally at loggerheads - you would attribute bad qualities…

JY: You try to dehumanise the other people.

OF: Or just, if there's a bad thing, you would attribute it to your enemy, right?

AS: Right because if you were practising understanding of the other culture, and trying to understand their perspective, then you probably wouldn't be in a war. The fact that you’re in a war is because you think that these people are hopeless.

OF: Oh, no, it’s… I mean, look at Trump, ‘The China Virus’, it's the same, it's been going on since Voltaire, this is something which is not new. And not just China, it's the West and the East, we always use the other side as a foil as to what we either want to do, or what you'd rather avoid. When you look at it from the bigger context, China versus the West. I mean, in America, I think you have something called ‘a Chinese Fire Drill’?

JY: Oh, is it called the ‘Chinese Fire Drill?’

HG: The car, when you get out and run around.

OF: Exactly. It's the same racist trope, where “Oh, the Chinese are panicking, and going round and round.” It's the same thing. Anyway. So that's a little bit of a detour. But that's why in the end, I was like “Maybe I shouldn't call it 'Chinese Whispers’”. 

JY: That’s funny. 

OF: Yeah.

JY: Well, that saved you, you did the research. Imagine if you didn't do the research, and today we're talking to Oscar from ‘Chinese Whispers’ 

HG: ‘Chinese Whispers’ with the Season 2, ‘Chinese Fire Drill’. 

OF: God.

AS: And then you get that post, like “The Honest drink is so racist. They invite racist people on the show, etc, etc.”

OF: Yes, I sidestepped that one. Yeah.

JY: Well Oscar, there are a few things I want to unpack with you. You were talking before about like the midlife crisis. And this is… You know, some of our earliest episodes revolved around this issue, because this is kind of the genesis…

HG: That was our catalyst.

JY: So I just find that really fascinating. And I'm wondering, from your standpoint, would you classify your crisis as a struggle with… You know, we talked about ego, but would it be maybe down to your identity? Because you're talking about, like, who you are in these dualities, these split sides you have. Would you boil all that down simply to a sense of identity?

OF: I mean, again, we're in a period where I'm stressed out. I've stressed myself out. So I don't know how I would answer this question in a different time. But right now, the timing is such that I'm stuck in China for two years. And I wonder to what extent that is the underlying reason why I am really going crazy. Because I've lived in Asia now for 18 years. And until now, it's always been a plus. Whatever my baseline is, me living in Asia adds something to it. It's just always been an augmentation of my ideas, the things that otherwise I wouldn't think about. I can look at Europe, I can look at the States from an inside/outside perspective that I've always enjoyed. In a way that I know that if I was still in my day job in London, I wouldn't really have the wherewithal - I wouldn't have the tools - to even know how to question my own culture. Now that I have not been able to set foot outside of China for one day in two years, for the first time I feel like it's becoming a minus. It's a weird thing that I can't articulate. I've just started to think of it in these terms recently.

JY: Can you put your finger on it, in terms of what it might be?

OF: it's a pressure valve that needs to be released, for me. When I've lived in Asia, we have thought of it as a right, almost, that every three or four months we can go to a different place, reset, and then look forward to coming home to China. I would even say it in those terms. Or ‘home’ to if I lived in Hong Kong, or when I was in Singapore, or when I was in Japan. I’m coming home, and I'm looking forward to my home, and my life in this country. I never, never use the word ‘expat’. There's no distinction between me and another economic migrant, I am a just a migrant, I've chosen to be here for economic reasons. This is my home. Without that pressure valve being released, the negativity of being in any strong culture - and China is a strong culture, especially right now - is I think building up. Which is, I think, the main reason why I'm not just skipping down the road, you know, happy go lucky. And you've talked about this on the podcast, too, because we are in the world of content production. And that puts me in a situation where I'm responsible for putting things out into the world. And my mindset is not in the same place that it was two years ago. So perhaps that's what's making me question, like “What am I doing?” This is what a midlife crisis is. It's “What am I doing? Why am I doing it?” Right?

JY: Well, maybe you're just getting a little bit of cabin fever.

OF: Yeah, it's not just cabin fever. I mean, you're right, I don't want to talk over you. It's more than just that, because it's tied in with what I'm doing day in, day out. Which is presenting this case for understanding, cross-cultural communication, and fun. At a time when perhaps I'm not entirely having the most fun, you know. That’s something which I don't think I can change. I love being in China, and I love escaping China. And when one of those outlets is not open to me, then I feel that this is the first time in 18 years that I feel like I'm missing out on not being elsewhere in the world right now. So I'm just at a crunch point.

JY: Well, how has being a Brit - and having the experiences, and spending the time you have in China, and seeing it as a home - how has your perspective changed over time, you feel?

OF: So this is going back to identity. So you said “being a Brit”, I am a British citizen, but my family were refugees from the Czech and Slovak Republics, or ‘Czechoslovakia’ as it was in ’68. We’re also Jewish, so that's part of my identity. I'm gay. All of these parts of my identity, they mean that I never really feel like I'm an insider. I mean, I've never really been ‘the Brit’. I've been the weird Brit with a name that sounds weird. I mean, my name is not English. So I've never really felt like I've changed. When I've been here, I've been able to skirt above mainstream society when it suits me, or delve into some kind of mainstream society when it suits me. That's kind of how I've lived my life anywhere in the world. Which I guess is why, you know, I am this ‘diversity person’. I mean, it's just part of who I am. And at the same time, I’ve created this identity of being ‘the China guy’, right?

HG: Yeah.

JY: Yeah, I think the reason why I asked my question is because, previously on shows we've discussed our identities as Asian Americans living here, sometimes feeling lost in between both sides. But you being in Asia for 18 years - to generalise, being ‘a white guy', right? - how do you…

HG: Being a racist…

OF: Being a racist white guy, yeah. Come on, give me my full title.

JY: But just like finding that identity, being here for 18 years. 

OF: Yeah.

JY: Talking with, I'm sure a very diverse group of family, friends from past and now. You know, where do you sit now? Because of the recent climate?

OF:  Yeah. I mean, it's something where maybe I have a different experience to you. 

JY: Yeah.

OF: You know, in one of my episodes - it was the finale of Season 02 - I talked with somebody who had transitioned. We’re talking about gender. And that was a fascinating story, in a way that made me think about my experience. Because the thing about people who have transitioned - and it's a controversial topic, but - is the word ‘passing’. So if you can pass as the gender which you feel, then that allows you to get through life without coming under too much external pressure. That's what passing means. So if someone who has transitioned - or is in the process of transitioning - if they ‘pass’ for the gender that they feel, then they are in a privileged position.

AS: Like Thomas Jefferson's children with Sally Hemings. There were a couple of them that could ‘pass’ as white men.

OF: That's it. So there's a racial version of it, there’s a gender version of it, all kinds of things manifested in different ways.

AS: People will… You can, if you decide to act that way, you can ‘pass’ and be considered by someone else as part of that tribe. 

OF: Right.

HG: It's legitimacy, that’s all it is.

AS: Yeah.

OF: It is. And then all of this is to talk about you guys. In China, you can ‘pass’. So you have a lot more flexibility. Because when you want to, you can ‘pass’ as a Chinese person. Whereas I'm a walking advert for who I am. And I think that's a different aspect that maybe - you know, because you are all American Asians - that's the diversity aspect that you might lack in your perspectives of living in China. Now, it's not a terrible experience to live in China as a white person. It’s fine. But you do understand the micro-aggressions. You do understand that. I mean, let me put it this way. If I ever got involved in a situation where the police were involved, there is no way I would imagine the police would be on my side. Like “I'm in trouble here”. Which I think a Chinese person listening to that would go “What do you mean? The police, they're here just to be safe. What are you talking about? You're this aggressive white person, whatever.” In exactly the same way that a black person in America would feel about the police. It gives you this perspective, which you would never have had. And just the way that… OK, let's say it was a year ago now. I was in 丽江 [Lìjiāng] airport. And it was post-COVID. And there was this table set up. And they were pointing to everyone who did not look Chinese to come and sign extra paperwork. I was with an Asian American, but I was the one who had to go and sign the extra stuff. It's nothing. Like, I had to walk through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Park. I went all the way through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Park before the guard came and dragged me back all the way to the front. I was almost at the end, but he dragged me all the way to the front. He was like “No, you have to get out of the park". Tiny things like that affect your experience. Where it's not life threatening - in other parts of the world, it could be life threatening - but I think that's where I would say to your answer about my identity in China. It's absolutely fine, I have a privileged existence here. But I just get the strong sense - no matter where I go in China - that China’s for the Chinese, right now. I don't want to bash on China for this one aspect, and these tiny little things that have happened in two years. Because I still love being in China. But yeah, it's palpable. And especially without this escape, that's what starts to build up.

JY: Well it feels like it's intensifying, given the political climate. 

OF: Totally, yeah.

HG: Well, even yesterday we were discussing…

JY: Yeah, we had a whole conversation…

HG: I mean, we don't have to go too deep about it. But I’ll use myself as an example, as an Asian American holding a US passport. I'm already feeling some of the… Like, when people find out that I am American, there's already this little bit of like, you know “Hmm, should we work together?” You know what I mean? Like, that kind of feeling, this underlying prejudice, almost. And even being Chinese, looking ethnically Chinese. As a joke I was saying, like… Because on my bio - I’m a director, I have to send out my bio, you know, to get jobs and stuff like that - it clearly states in the first line, I'm born in America etc. etc. It's like “Should I take that out?” You know what I mean?

OF: Yeah.

HG: Maybe I should take it out. Because these days, the climate, it's a lot more sensitive. You know, being an American. Especially as an American. Australian, American, UK. 

OF: Yeah. 

AS: Yeah.

OF: And this is a self-erasure. When people talk about erasure, that’s exactly what you're doing. You’re literally erasing your identity, to be able to ‘pass’. It's not a comfortable decision. But of course, there's no black and white. I think, in every interaction, we are making very quick decisions based on “OK, to what extent do I reveal that part of my identity or not,” right?

JY: And this ties into like… You gave me a new perspective, talking to you. And I never really realised it before. But when you were talking about your identity, when I called you a Brit, and you're like “Well I’m many other things including a Brit, but I'm Jewish, I'm gay. I'm a lot of things”. And it struck me - and it was a revelation to me - because we've talked about the idea of Third Culture, right. And from our personal experiences, you know, we've talked before about this feeling of thinking or feeling like we are Third Culture kids…

OF: Yeah.

JY: Because we're from the States, but we're living in China, and we don't feel like we are fully 100% accepted in either place. And that puts us in this kind of Third Culture space. Or we feel like maybe we're a little lost, we don't know what home is necessarily. And when you were talking about your own identity, I feel like that is just even more dynamic of a situation. 

OF: Yeah.

JY: Given all the things that you identify with. And so how do you deal with this feeling of identity, a feeling of belonging, a feeling of like what your tribe is, what your home is? All that comes into play, and I can’t really imagine like how it feels for you.

OF: You’re right. When I listened to your podcast - going back to the whole podcast conversation - you say ‘Third Culture’, I would call your perspective, quite binary. You are China versus America, which is great. But when you say that, and then you you talk in terms of ‘West versus East’, that's when I think, “Is this West versus East? This is just China/US”. I appreciate it when you say “China versus US”, which are your two perspectives. But I've lived in four different places in Asia. Everything is nuanced, right?

JY: Yeah. 

OF: So it is a really weird place to be. In one way it's a gift, because I can look at things from 13 different angles. In a way that that's my superpower, actually. And of course, the same superpower is a big weakness. Because, yeah, I can never relate to people in a way that allows me to say “Look, I am your people, so listen to me. This is what we should all be thinking.” Because no one really relates in the same way. I'm a European, from Eastern Europe and the UK. I've lived in Germany. I married an American, he's California. And we met in Asia. It means that I fit everywhere, and I fit nowhere.

HG: Well that’s beautiful, though, to me. I feel like that that should be the way we should be moving towards, as a society.

OF: Kind of. But what I was saying was you fit everywhere, but you fit nowhere at the same time. That's the dichotomy. Again, it's this duality.

HG: Yeah.

AS: Well, I appreciate your point there. You know, from our perspective - and it's, it's just a dialogue that’s really important - because like, you know, then we could take this judgmental view over the years that “Oh Caucasian people can get away with anything in China.” Right? “And they have certain privileges,” and stuff like that.

OF: Which is generally true, yeah.

AS: It’s true. But it's important for us to get your perspective. Like, there's always a microscope in some ways on you, because visually you're identifiable. Then I think the other point is that we're navigating this multicultural world, right? And there's more and more connectivity. You used to build a road from A to B, from B to C, and eventually you could get from A to C. And it's very very linear, point A to point B. But with connectivity now, you can literally draw a line from any point to any other point. And so where does the responsibility lie? So we're navigating this very complex world. And sometimes we're going to be the majority, right? We're going to have the force of the majority, we're going to be in the in-group in the in-tribe. And we don't have to think about things, because we can just blend in with the masses. And sometimes we're going to be part of the minority, and we're going to face certain types of headwinds. And almost everyone experiences that, even if you're a white Caucasian WASP in the US, like, they have inner voices too. And so everyone is going to paint themselves as a victim sometimes. And so I think the question is “OK, how do we have the dialogue?” Because what I was thinking earlier was that Justin, myself, and Howie we have the benefit of each other, we can talk through these things. And we use the show as self-therapy and self-reflection. 

OF: Yeah. 

AS: And we use the show as a collective identity, because we're not alone. And in a way you're alone. I think it's like, how do we create this positive, supportive, open framework? Because it's really important to know that you're not alone. So I think it's like, then how do we look forward, right? How do we create a support network and plan so that we can be mentally healthy and happy about ourselves?

OF: That's what I think we're both doing with our projects, it is about putting that message out there. And you do have the advantage of having the three of you, and mine is much more solitary. But when I meet every guest, I mean, I do get that energy. It's just not as intimate as what you can do over the course of two years, day-in day-out meeting each other. I think the idea of connectivity is a tricky one, because that was the ideal of what the internet would be, right? We would all be connected. And then it would be this marketplace of ideas where the best ideas would come out. But the problem with connectivity is that we connect with what we already feel is correct. And then we go into echo chambers, and we only are connecting with the ones who agree with our own ideas. So you know, that word is a bit triggering, because it's not working, you know. It’s what it's what the world should have been.

AS: And we can send garbage down the network with ease now, which is a problem.

OF: That's the problem. So all we can do, yes… I mean, the way forward is to do what we're doing, you know, and to have open dialogues and to put out stuff that helps to bridge the misunderstandings that are from point A to Z. Let's cure this, guys, the four of us. OK, let's hold hands. 

HG: Hold hands. Sing a song.

OF: We’re gonna solve this, we're gonna solve this.

AS: Can I end with a quote?

JY: Please do. 

AS: Alright. The quote I wanted to share was from Thomas Jefferson, and he just said “How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened?”

JY: Yeah, it's kind of almost similar to the idea of, nine out of ten of your concerns are unfounded. 

AS: Exactly. 

JY: Right. Yeah, and one final point I do want to stress that maybe was lost in this conversation, was that we like to be critical of a lot of different places, wherever we are. But at the same time, like, my pet peeve is like, where we are, we're living off of the privileges of that place in that culture. 

OF: Yeah, I agree. 

JY: I want to be balanced to our approach, and looking and hearing from all different perspectives, especially including yours Oscar.

OF: You're right. You're both right, yeah. It's something where it's nice to hear you say it and articulate it, because it's something which you're absolutely right. We are privileged to be here in this point of time. It's a nice place to end this conversation. And I do agree with you.

AS: I mean, this whole thing with pessimism, right? Like, I think internally, I hold a lot of pessimism, my inner voice. You know, I have a very loud inner voice that's full of pessimism. So when I hear pessimism outside of me, I immediately recognise it. And my optimistic voice fights it. And so while I'm poor at fighting my inner voice and pessimism inside, I'm a crusader against any kind of pessimism that happens outside. And so I think you'll find that some of the most pessimistic people, they come across really optimistic, because they're trying to fight that fight.

OF: I agree. And this is kind of the dynamic that I love about your podcast, because I wouldn't have the forum to bring out this pessimism. Like, it's not something which I talk about. 

JY: Yeah.

OF: This is why I like your podcast, and I believe others do too. Because it is a forum that you can bring out stuff that I would never say on my own podcast. You know, and I wouldn't say this publicly elsewhere. And that's thanks to you guys. So I want to say once again, thank you for what you do. Continue with your optimistic podcast. I do appreciate it.

HG: Thank you.

JY: Thank you Oscar. It was a pleasure speaking to you, sharing with you. Good luck on everything. Where can people find you, Oscar?

OF: So the podcast is everywhere. You can find the website, the website actually has transcripts. 

AS: Wow.

OF: So if you're not good at English, you can follow.

HG: That is great. I know a lot of our listeners like that. 

OF: It's hard to do. It takes time. 

JY: You also have additional content, and there's a lot of different stuff.

OF: Yes, so I've tried to be creative in terms of giving the most loyal people who listen some extra content, so you can go on something called 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], where there's a longer version of every episode. 

JY: Yes. 

OF: 10 to 15 minutes longer. 

HG: That’s great.

JY: That's awesome. Once again, thanks, Oscar. It was a pleasure. 

HG: Cheers. 

OF: Cheers.

JY: Alright, peace.

AS: Oh, wait, do we say who we are.

OF: No but you should.

HG: We always do that. 

OF: Go on, do it do it.

HG: Why are you breaking tradition. Justin?

OF: We don’t always have to do that.

OF: Ritual. Ritual is important to these guys. 

JY: That was Oscar. I’m Justin.

AS: I'm pretty optimistic today. 

HG: And I am neutral today. 

JY: Peace.

OF: I didn't know the darkness would come out so badly. Oh my God. I think it’s the gin.

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