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[Trailer]

OF: What this means to me is that I feel like I am at ‘peak relatability.’

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

So around about now, I should have been announcing the start of Season 03 of the show. I would have finished all my recordings; there would be photos to share from the fun season launch party; and we would be ready to hear more stories from people’s lives in China. 

But no, the launch of Season 03 is still nowhere in sight. I was all set to travel around China to finish off the final few recordings when things started to shut down, and now I’ve been stuck in Shanghai for a month. And for most of that time when I say stuck, I mean STUCK: the locked-indoors, mind-turning-to-mush, extended-periods-of-questionable-personal-hygiene kind of stuck.

Oh, what’s that you say? “You’re locked in, surely that’s a great chance for you to spend your time editing down the upcoming episodes, no?” Er, no! I can’t be **** bothered to do any of that. And even if I could be bothered, Denny is using our home office every day to do his real job, and I can’t hunch over the kitchen table for hours editing recordings without putting my back out.

So here I am, my motivation to do this light and fun podcast project is basically subterranean right now. And even though I do have enough time on my hands to read Tolstoy’s ‘War and Peace’ - sorry, I mean ‘Special Operation and Peace’ - I’m instead spending all my time watching a strange cocktail of Bridgerton, Succession and Bob’s Burgers on TV, and all the while drinking strange cocktails of whatever we can make from the remnants of our drinks cabinet. 

There’s enough terrible news out there, and apart from this mini-rant, I don’t really fancy adding any more negatively into the world right now. So instead I'm going to try and offset the negativity by publishing this edited version of an interview that I did on another podcast a few months ago. This time it was for a show called Footprints, which is produced by China Radio International, the English-language news service based in Beijing. Thank you very much to Yin Xiuqi and his colleague Ning Yan for the invitation to appear on their show, as well as to friend-of-the-show Rebecca Kanthor, who first made the introduction. I’ve edited down the original show, so if you want to listen to the full version please check out and subscribe to Footprints, which should be available wherever you're listening to this now.

[Main]

LAI Ming: For more details about the story of Oscar Fuchs, Yin Xiuqi had a chat with him, starting with his experience in Japan.

OF: Japan was my first experience living in Asia. The story was that I was studying law and German at university, and I realised towards the end of my studies that I did not want to be a lawyer. So I chose the topics that were interesting to me in my final year, and one of those topics was the law of Japan, just a half course on the introduction to Law in Japan. And that made me very curious. There was one lesson that I had where the teacher said “This is a concept which I probably can't explain without taking up the whole lesson. So I'll just continue, and we won't discuss that concept”. When I was faced with a Japanese term that had no equivalent concept in the UK, that's what really triggered my interest. So when I heard about a programme that would allow me to teach English in Japan, I said “Why not?” I think my family were a little bit shocked, because they thought I might become a lawyer. But instead, I ran away to Japan.

YIN Xiuqi: You've lived in Japan, Singapore, and China. So from your experience on the observation, what are some commonalities and differences between these three countries?

OF: Because my experiences living in these countries were so different, I'm always quite wary about commenting on their commonalities and differences. But what I will say is that there are some similarities in the way people think. They tend to be more deferential towards seniority, they tend to be less confrontational, they tend to have a stronger identity as a member of a family group. These are all generalisations, of course. Just like with every generalisation, there are many exceptions. I think the differences that I observed were around the nuances in how people communicate with each other. I think people in Singapore, they can be a little more casual. Whereas people in Japan are much more formal. Actually, in that way I found the Japanese to be quite similar to British people. We can both be very polite, we can be very charming. But underneath the politeness and the charm, we can be a little reserved, sometimes a little cold. China is much harder to generalise. In parts of the south, the culture reminds me of Singapore. And then Shanghai sometimes reminds me of Japan, where you sometimes need to read between the lines of what people are saying, they're not always so direct. The north of China, they're quite direct. The people there are quite cheerful. It can be quite confronting, but actually I find the communication in the north of China quite refreshing. China has so many regions, that even cities have their own micro-cultures, right? 

YX: Right.

OF: So I always find it a little foolish to try and say anything comprehensive about China. Japan culture is a little more homogenous, Singapore culture is a little more international. So I somehow feel a little less foolish when talking about those places. I've lived in Hong Kong for three years and Shanghai now for six, seven years. And as the years progress, I seem to feel more and more foolish, and less and less confident about trying to generalise about China at all.

YX: Yeah, this country is so huge and diverse.

OF: Right.

YX: So what kinds of cultural shocks have you experienced when you move to China?

OF: When I moved to China, the lucky part about my story is that I had of course lived in Japan and Singapore before, so I had learnt some lessons from my previous experiences. So for example, when I first moved to Japan I tried very hard to learn all the customs and to do everything properly. Say the right things; do the right gestures; try to be as Japanese as the Japanese. The culture shock I had in Japan was when I realised that the secret to life was just being yourself. When I was in Japan, many of the people I thought were being friendly, they actually were not really my friends. And it was the people who had initially held back slightly, and then later engaged with me on a more authentic level, they were the ones who became my real friends. And of course, you do need to adapt to a new culture. That's what being a good citizen in a new culture is. You know, you have to fit in. 

YX: Yeah.

OF: But it can't be at the expense of what it means to be you. So when I moved to China, I hadn't forgotten that lesson. Just being myself has meant that I was less susceptible to culture shocks when I eventually moved to Shanghai.

YX: Have you made any friends with the local residents?

OF: On the surface, people in Shanghai are very business-focused, right. It's a business city. It's a commercial city. And this is definitely true. And that brings with it a certain hardness. It's a little less warm, a little less friendly, when you compare it to some other parts of China. This much I've learnt living here and travelling around. But then when you develop a relationship with them, this is when the hardness just washes away. They become just as friendly as anywhere else. My next door neighbour, she's a retired teacher - she's in her late 80s - I see her every day, as I'm coming in and out of my lane. And it's funny, just yesterday I was in a completely different part of town, and I suddenly saw her on the street. And I never see her elsewhere, I only see her on my lane. And I was so surprised to see her, before I even knew it I was giving her a big hug in the middle of the street. And she gave me a big hug back. It's funny, because yesterday, I think I spent the whole day smiling, and I'm still smiling about it this morning. I can speak Chinese, but not well enough to have a very deep conversation. Moments like that remind me that there are more meaningful ways to interact than just with words.

YX: Why did you choose to stay in this city for so many years?

OF: Yeah, this really was a learning process, but it became clear that Shanghai is a very special place. It's not just because it's a city where there are lots of foreign influences. What I've learnt is that it's always been a city of immigrants since its inception. You know, a Chinese history professor friend of mine told me, there's no such thing as an original Shanghainese person. Even the original inhabitants were from 宁波 [Níngbō] or 苏州 [Sūzhōu]. Of course, you do have the international influences that came later. And that's where Shanghai earned its reputation as the 开放城市 [kāifàng chéngshì], a city open to the outside world. The people here are from all corners of the world. They represent people from business, from academia, arts, and sports and science, and you name it. People here, they're just open to ideas, they’re open to connections. Now, there is a downside. Because it can be absolutely exhausting to keep up with this traffic of ideas, this traffic of opportunities. So that's the one downside to the city. You need to find your equilibrium somehow. You need to prioritise the things that keep you happy, because it can be very easy to lose sight of those things, and that's when people can have problems. But what I'm seeing - especially with the younger generation - is that they understand this. The younger people here, I think, they're trying to have lifestyles that are more sustainable. And those are the people that I think are going to form the future culture of Shanghai.

YX: Yeah. So Shanghai is very open and diverse. Do you think this city is a place of opportunity for foreign nationals?

OF:  Oh, definitely. It's the easiest place, it's the most productive place. In some ways that’s a negative, because people will say “Well, it's not the real China”. And I think they're right. You know, it's not the real China, just as London is not the real England, New York is not the real America. 

YX: Right.

OF: But because of this confluence of ideas and people, I think it's a great place to base yourself. When I was in my headhunting company, it was extremely useful for me to be based in Shanghai. As a headhunter, I really should have been meeting my clients at their global headquarters. I tried to start planning these trips to my clients, and then I realised "Wow, these clients are spread across the whole of America, the whole of Europe. I would need a three-month road-trip to visit all of my clients across these continents”. But then I realised being in Shanghai that actually, the world was flying to me.

YX: Yeah.

OF: You know, I didn't need to go to all these places. At some point, they would come to me. And that was the unique attraction about being based in Shanghai.

YX: Right. You've been in Shanghai for more than six years, I think. So what kind of changes have you noticed in terms of its urban infrastructure and its cultural environment?

OF: Well, let me talk about the urban infrastructure. I do continue to see changes all the time, the pace of change hasn't seemed to slow down in all my six years here. I'll tell you what I noticed the most, and that is the environment feels much greener in the city these days. You know, the city has made a huge effort to bring more nature into the city, especially since I've been here. That's the one thing I do miss about living in places like Hong Kong and Singapore, where you do have much easier access to nature. Even Beijing, where you are, I think you can get to the mountains pretty easily outside of Beijing, maybe one hour? In Hong Kong, I could hike 30 minutes from my home in Hong Kong and I would be up a mountain. In Singapore, I had monkeys stealing mangoes from the tree in my garden. It's very difficult to replicate that in a city like Shanghai. But that's the effort that they're making, and I really appreciate that. It's turning Shanghai into an even more liveable city, even though there are so many people here. It's harder for me to answer the second part of your question about the cultural environment, because COVID has definitely made that harder. You know, Shanghai used to have artists and exhibitions and people always coming in and out, and the highest quality of culture used to flow into the city from all parts of the world. And that is recently a little lacking, I'm afraid. You do still get interesting exhibitions, but not in the same number that we used to. I guess we're just looking forward to the days when this can bounce back.

YX: Have you traveled to other places in China, other than Shanghai?

OF: Yes. You know, normally, if I had a week or two, I would leave China and I would see my friends in Singapore or Tokyo or London. But with COVID, you can't travel. So in the last two years especially, I have travelled to many different places that maybe otherwise I wouldn't have gone to. So I spent time in 甘肃 [Gānsù], in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], in 云南 [Yúnnán], in 贵州 [Guìzhōu]. I just came back from a trip to 西宁 [Xīníng] in 青海 [Qīnghǎi], and 杭州 [Hángzhōu], many different places. And I'm really understanding, more and more, the diversity of China.

[Break]

LM: Now let's take a short break. Next, Fuchs will talk about why he launched his Mosaic of China project, and how he got to better understand and present this country in his talk show. Stay tuned. You've been listening to Footprints.

[End of Break]

OF: I noticed that the representation of China in the media was always focusing on… Well, one of my podcast interviewees - she is a fashion journalist - she had a great quote, she said “People look at ‘Big, Bad, Weird China’”. They only focus on the ‘big, bad, weird' side of China, and they don't focus on all the other aspects of life in China. So I wanted to present a different image, something which was more focused on the lives of people who live in this country.

YX: How many guests have been invited to appear on your show?

OF: Right, well every season consists of 30 guests. That's the number that I came up with that works best to allow for as much diversity as possible. And now there have been two seasons so far. So altogether, that makes 60 guests. And then when I launch Season 03, that'll be another 30 coming up.

YX: The Mosaic of China is about telling stories of people from various walks of life and different cultural backgrounds. Through speaking with your guests, you have a much better and deeper understanding of China and the people who live here.

OF: Absolutely. That's a very selfish by-product of this project, I get more and more layers of knowledge, where I'm slowly learning more about China. This is where it's interesting, because I like to keep an element of ignorance at the same time. Let me explain it. When I was doing headhunting, I was working with management teams. And they were often cross-cultural management teams. Sometimes you ask the team “Why do you do it like this in China?” Or "Why do you do it like this in Japan?” Whatever, right? And the Chinese person would sometimes say “Well, that's just how we do it in China”. Sometimes, the foreigner who has lived in China for a long time, they will agree. They will say "Yeah, that's just how things are done in China”. Sometimes the foreigner adapts too much. Sometimes you need to have the foreigner who has just arrived into China, they are the ones who ask the question, “No no really, why do you do that?” If the answer is just “Oh that's just what we do, that's just Chinese culture,” you really have to investigate that. Is it culture? Or is it an excuse not to change? You know, what even is culture? Because culture itself can be hijacked, it can be manipulated, depending on the reason why people are saying that. So I learned that from my headhunting days as well. Yes, I do learn more and more. At the same time, I still try to keep that naïveté. I still try to keep that part of me which remains inquisitive and ignorant, so that I can ask the right questions.

YX: How did you get the financial support for producing your show?

OF: This is why it's not a business, I don't get financial support, I have the luxury of being able to fund the project myself. Now having said that, I do get some donations from fans, and from some organisations, people who understand the ethos, they just want to support what I'm doing. But actually, it doesn't pay the costs. And it's also not why I'm doing the show. You know, the fact that I'm independent - and the fact that this is not a business, it's just a passion project - this is what hopefully keeps the project more pure, and hopefully more trusted by its listeners. So I don't think that it will ever be something which will be fully financially supported.

YX: Besides producing and hosting Mosaic of China, what other things keep you busy at the moment?

OF: Well actually, I am a student. When I sold my company, I didn't just start the podcast, I also enrolled in a Master's degree programme at 上海交通大学 [Shànghǎi Jiāotōng Dàxué], where I am studying a Masters of Modern Chinese studies, which is a great course. It’s a mixture of philosophy, and history, and the literature of modern China. So I attended lectures for the first year, and then I am now writing my thesis. So that's what keeps me busy outside of the podcast.

YX: What are your plans for your show, and for yourself?

OF: Well, the plan is to just keep going for now. Maybe I'll still be here doing this in five years, and maybe I won't. This is, I think, how I've always lived my life. So I don't really have a plan. Especially these days with COVID, the future seems so unknowable. So I'm just trying to focus on living in the now. And just like how things happened when I moved to Shanghai - when I moved to Hong Kong, when I moved to Singapore - something will present itself. 

YX: Yeah. 

OF: And maybe I'll end up in Beijing, who knows?

YX: Do you mind telling us something about your family background and your life back in Britain?

OF: That's a good question, because we are all a product of our childhood and our upbringing, I think. I come from London, my father is Czech with an engineering background, my mother was Slovak with an artistic background, she was a very accomplished pianist and piano teacher. And then I went to a school in central London, where my class was a mix of people from all over the world. And at that time, you know, you don't really question your upbringing. You just live your life, you just get on with it. But now when I look back, I can see how I've always been absorbing this absolute mess of cultures in my background, and I've always enjoyed it. This is one of the reasons why I feel like I'm in exactly the right place at the right time. I have a mix of the practical and the artistic in my background. I have a mix of cultures. I'm now in my 40s, so I can still just about remember my 20s and my 30s, yet I can also relate to people in their 50s and their 60s. My generation straddled the digital age, we remember the time before mobile phones, before email, and yet we've adapted to the modern age. 

YX: Right.

OF: I've also spent my life half in Europe and half in Asia. I've had a lot of luck, I've had a lot of success, but I've also experienced tragedy. So what this means to me is that I feel like I am at ‘peak relatability.’ I feel like I can relate to many people. So when you asked me about my childhood, it does make me think “Yes, I can track the narrative of my life up to what I'm doing today”. It almost feels like this is exactly what I should be doing.

YX: Great. Thank you very much for talking to me.

OF: Oh, thank you Xiuqi, really great to speak with you.

[Break]

LM: With that, we conclude this edition of Footprints. This is Lai Ming, thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye for now.

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