Season 03 Bonus: Codependency

The details below are for the REGULAR version of this episode. For the PREMIUM version, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Patreon (outside China) or 爱发电 (in China).

Bonus Episode

Mosaic of China with Oscar Fuchs - "Codependency"

Original Date of Release: 17 Jan 2023.

We've reached the halfway point of Season 03. And following in the tradition from previous seasons, we're marking the occasion with a special bonus episode, and an extra special bonus guest. This particular guest has been a long time coming!

The timing of this episode couldn't be better. Not only does it coincide with the New Year and the run-up to Spring Festival in China, it also coincides with an inflexion point in China as it pivots from Zero-COVID to a new period of openness and opportunity. What kind of emotions does this massive change generate in those of us who have spent the last three years in China? Well... it's complicated.

Season 03 is supported by Shanghai Daily - the China news site; Rosetta Stone - the language learning company; naked Retreats - the luxury resorts company; SmartShanghai - the listings and classifieds app; and JustPod - the podcast production company.

To Join the Conversation and Follow The Graphics…

View the Instagram Story Highlight, the LinkedIn Post or the Facebook Album for this episode. Alternatively, follow Mosaic of China on WeChat.

To view the images below on a mobile device, rotate to landscape orientation to see the full image descriptions.

To Listen Here…

Click the ▷ button below:

To Listen/Subscribe Elsewhere…

1) Click the link to this episode on one of these well-known platforms:

2) Or on one of these China-based platforms:

To Read The Transcript…

[Trailer]

OF: The secret's out, we do not have a very exciting life.

DN: Invite us out, people!

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to the PREMIUM version of Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

Happy new year! We're in that strange limbo period between New Year and Chinese New Year, where nothing really gets started properly in this part of the world. But seeing as it's been so many weeks since the last episode - which was Episode 15 with Dajiang - I figured I should release something new this week. In the past I've always invited another China-based podcaster to interview me for these special mid-season bonus episodes. But this time, I've invited none other than Denny Newell to join me behind the mic. You hear me say his name at the end of every single episode, so now you finally get to hear his voice. And it's about time, seeing as it was Denny who actually came up with the name 'Mosaic' when we were brainstorming ideas behind this podcast. I have so much more to thank Denny for all his help behind the scenes of this project, and you'll hear some of that coming right up.

I'll be back again at the end of the episode with another little announcement. But in the meantime, I hope you enjoy the spectacle that is me and Denny trying to have a normal conversation.

[Main]

OF: Hello Denny.

DN: Hello Oscar.

OF: I’ve decided that for this season's bonus episode, it's going to be a conversation between you and me. You being my chief image designer on Mosaic of China. You also happen to be my partner and husband.

DN: Oh yeah! I’m that too, yes. I do all of those things.

OF: I really don't know how this is going to go. Because we've been together now for 10 years, which means that we don't really communicate in full sentences at all. It's more like grunts and other animal noises. So let's see what kind of conversation we're gonna have. It's gonna be as much a surprise for us as it's gonna be for anyone listening.

DN: Yeah, I think it will be. I don't know how this is going to go. It’s unrehearsed, everybody.

OF: I should explain that this is happening because of a suggestion by Max Cassidy. Hello, Max.

DN: Hello Max. Thank you… I think?

OF: We were talking about what he would want to hear, and he said “Oh, you definitely have to have a chat with Denny at some point.” Let me, I guess first of all, introduce you to anyone listening.

DN: All right.

OF: You are my entourage. You're my entourage of one. You're my key supporter in this whole endeavour. I look to you, because you are someone who I see as possibly the most capable person that I know. You're just a fully functional human being. It's a revelation to me that there are people walking the planet like you, who actually can just do things. You know, for me, I can be like that, but only in short stints. I have phases where things are working well, and I'm in full flow. But then I have phases where the wheels completely come off, and everything starts piling up around me. So just to be around someone like you who is consistent, and who is reliable, it’s like living with a god.

DN: Oh wow!

OF: I’m awestruck every single day. I want to say a big thank you for just being there as a symbol of how people just get **** done.

DN: Oh well thank you. I don't know that I live up to all of those accolades, but I'll take them. Thank you.

OF: Well, apart from being the designer of the logos of Mosaic of China…

DN: Yes.

OD: …What is your day job?

DN: I am Director of Creative and Production for Shanghai Disney Resort Entertainment. So my team takes care of all the live entertainment that happens at Shanghai Disney Resort: the parades, the shows, all the seasonal events, all the decor. So yeah, it's a pretty fun job.

OF: And you are the reason we are here. You got the job here in Disney Shanghai. We met in Hong Kong when you were at the Hong Kong park.

DN: Yes, I was Creative Director there for Entertainment, and got the call to apply - and then ended up getting the job - to move to that same role here in Shanghai. And I have since been promoted to this new role.

OF: Thanks to you, we had a great guest in Season 01, which was Philippe Gas.

DN: Yes.

OF: He, at the time, was the President of the Shanghai Disney Resort. And getting him was one of the things that really spurred the entire project along. Because when I was first asking people to be a part of the project back then - when it didn't exist, and they didn't quite know what they were saying “Yes” to - the fact that Philippe was on board so soon, thanks to your introduction, really helped kickstart the entire project. So that's a bit of a secret weapon that I had there, thanks to you.

DN: Well, you know Philippe because of me. But it was your idea - your plan for the whole podcast - that sold him on wanting to be a part of it. So I can't take credit for that, I think the podcast - and you - should take credit for that.

OF: OK, well we have to stop being so sickeningly nice to each other. Before we stop, I said that you are capable, but I think it's the creative side that obviously has inspired me. You know, when you and I met, I was much more in a business realm. I was very much in that zone. Being with you has opened up my eyes to how you can harness your own creativity, and do it in a positive way. That's the thing about you, you are a positive person. It's something which me, as a Brit, I am predisposed to be cynical about. You are the bright and shiny Californian, and I am the twisted depressive Brit in the relationship. But it's something where I see the phrase ‘Putting good energy out there’. And I see the way that what you do engenders positivity in other people. I've only learned a fraction of that, but I will continue trying. Because it's something where I used to see it as something which was a bit fake. And you know, that kind of toxic positivity now that people talk about.

DN: Right.

OF: But for you, it's entirely genuine. So if I am at all positive these days, it's basically thanks to you.

DN: That’s not the truth. No, that's not true at all. But thank you. OK, let's turn the tables, we’re supposed to be talking about you. So I'll introduce you, Oscar, how about that?

OF: Well, maybe what you can introduce is what you see in terms of how I work on this project. What do you observe?

DN: Right. Well I know that when you first came up with the idea, it was really a way to continue meeting interesting people. And I was proud of that. You came up with an idea to keep yourself busy, and it's really become a big part of our lives. And has expanded not only your network, but my network, and our network as a couple. You know, we've talked about friends coming and going - especially lately in Shanghai - and the few friends that we still have in Shanghai, are mostly because of Mosaic of China.

OF: Yeah.

DN: It's really kept us afloat, and kept us as sane as we can be during some difficult times.

OF: Yeah. Yeah, I do agree with that. I think part of my worry in coming up to Shanghai - when I first moved up here to be with you - was “How am I going to develop an identity for myself?” You know, I didn’t just want to want to latch on to all of your friends. So yeah, it is interesting how it has become this vehicle for me to keep in the traffic of new people. And it's not like everyone who I interview becomes our friend. And it's not like every friend we have has come from the show.

DN: Right.

OF: But it's just something which makes sure that both of us keep our eyes outwardly focused, and not too inwardly focused. Which has been very easy to do during this last year, especially.

DN: Definitely, I do think it kept us sane in that regard, and helped us expand our friends circle beyond where we probably would have been without it. Definitely.

OF: Yeah.

DN: Well the other thing we wanted to talk about is, you and I just got back from our first trip out of the Chinese mainland in almost three years. Back to the States for me, and we saw some of your family as well. So how would you describe your feelings about that trip? Like, what does it mean to you, what was it like?

OF: I mean, at the beginning it was like "What the hell?” When we left, it was when things were very unstable down our street. And so we figured “Ach you know what, we've waited three years for this trip. Let's not leave it to any chance, let’s just bring the trip forward.” And we were out.

DN: Right.

OF: Because things change so quickly. I mean, that probably is my answer to you. The feeling I get from that trip now is, it's a reminder about how fast things change in China.

DN: Right.

OF: Because two or three weeks into our month-long trip, people were asking us about what it's like on the ground in China. And by that time, we basically had to say “Well, we don’t know!”

DN: Right.

OF: Because we left China, and it was still ‘zero-COVID’. And as we've been away, it's suddenly all changed. And we're now in a situation where everything is upside-down again.

DN: Uh-huh.

OF: The trip itself was, of course, great. We overindulge, we basically overdid it.

DN: Yeah.

OF: For four weeks. Now we're on a strict diet, trying to get back into our routines. Now that we're back, it makes me think about: what is the theme of last year? Because it does feel like the close of the year is a watershed moment in China. In the past, this bonus episode has always had a title.

DN: Uh-huh.

OF: In Season 01, it was ‘Community’. That was where I was thinking: Is Mosaic of China a community? And then last season, it was more about ‘Connectivity’.

DN: Right.

OF: It’s not necessarily a community, but we’re all ‘connected’ in some way. When I was thinking about what word would encapsulate our experience from this first half of Season 03, I think the word that comes to mind is ‘Codependency’.

DN: Yes.

OF: That’s what it's been like personally, where - in our hardest moments - you were focused on certain things that you could do to help, I was focused on other things, and there was this symbiotic relationship which you can call ‘codependency’.

DN: Right.

OF: If you look at the word itself, it's not a good thing. Because we should really be more independent. But we were thrust into this kind of codependency. And if I expand that, that's kind of how it has felt with this rump of international people who are left from these times here in China. We have been through a lot these last 2.5-3 years. And I do feel that we have this kind of codependency together. Where we're reliant on each other.

DN: And we made it through together.

OF: We made it through together; we all have similar stories. That in itself is kind of nice. And now that things are going to open up, it's completely perverse but part of me is going to miss that.

DN: Yes.

OF: It is bizarre, because we've been wanting China to open up, it's been the dream. And at the same time now we're going to get people coming in? To ‘our China’? It's such a weird feeling, which I hope is just in this very moment.

DN: I think it is.

OF: Right? When people do start coming, and then there is more of this intermingling of visitors and locals, then it'll be like "Oh, no this is a joyous thing.” But right now I think we are so institutionalised in this codependency.

DN: Mmm.

OF: That’s why I think this word is the title of this bonus episode, it’s the feeling that we have all been through. And it is not a good thing. There are things that we can reflect on, in a positive way. But opening up is a good thing.

DN: Yes.

OF: Well maybe I should just bounce that question right back to you. You know, you asked me at the beginning of this, how would I describe my feelings about this month-long trip we took? What about you?

DN: Well I think we hadn't been able to leave for so long beforehand, we really wanted to build up a time where we missed coming back to Shanghai to our home.

OF: Yeah.

DN: And I do think we did that. I think we were ready. And we really wanted to get back to our home and our life, and my job here. We were just… we were ready. And that was a good feeling.

OF: Yeah.

DN: To miss Shanghai. And to want to come back to it. And - it’ll be the ‘new norm’, but - coming back to a Shanghai that's open again, as it was before all of the issues we had coming into it.

OF: Yeah. Totally. You're absolutely right, yeah. And you know, without leaving you can't get that feeling. That's the point, right? I mean, you talked about coming back to our routines,  that's a good segue for me to ask you about your input into this project. How would you describe how you and I work together on Mosaic of China?

DN: Well, I guess I'm your graphic designer, you're my boss.

OF: Heh heh.

DN: I have to please you. But I do think part of the reason I liked the name ‘Mosaic’ is it offered something visual to latch onto, and we landed on these hexagon tiles as the theme. It's obviously evolved, we now have a new cartoonish picture of you that I did. You know, it's an outlet for me. I am definitely not a professional designer, but I do dabble in it. And it's forced me to hone my skills in that. I've actually taken some online classes to get a little better. So I enjoy it. It gives me something to do while I'm sitting on the couch watching TV with you over the weekend.

OF: Yes, the secret's out, we do not have a very exciting life.

DN: Invite us out, people!

OF: Yes!

DN: We’ll come out… maybe.

OF: We will come out, sometimes. I should say, you know, we didn't really explain your job at Disney that well. Your background, in terms of creativity, is dance.

DN: Yes. Yeah, I started as a dancer at Disney many, many, many years ago. And my background is not in design or art. It was always a hobby. And now I get to kind of stretch that ‘talent’, I guess.

OF: Oooh!

DN: Oh I said “talent!” Eurgh. But let's turn the table back to you. Can you describe to me a little bit how the process for Mosaic of China has changed coming into the third season, and going onto the fourth season?

OF: The video part is entirely new.

DN: And the transcripts.

OF: Well the transcripts are not new, the transcripts I started last season already. But…

DN: Putting them on the video though…

OF: Exactly. I mean, this is the thing with the videos, I had all the elements already. Because I had all of the images that I got from the guest, I had a video platform, and I had the transcript. So all I had to do was to put them all together, which is what I've done. It's a new skillset to make videos rather than just the audio, so that's been fun for me. And it has also allowed me to edit down those videos to make these little short video versions of each episode, which are just like four or five minutes long. And people who perhaps haven't heard the entire episode will maybe watch this mini version of the podcast. And I've attracted more people to the main podcast through that process, which I didn't realise that I was going to do. So I'm just adding more and more onto this podcast. It really is now a full-time job.

DN: Right.

OF: Which is good in a way, because that's why I started this project. It was to keep me away from mischief. But when do I stop? So the process has evolved, I get more and more obsessive, more and more into it. Is that necessarily a good thing? I don't know. But it's still fun for now.

DN: As long as it's fun. And you seem to get faster at doing it. But you do keep adding more. And with that in mind, what’s coming up next?

OF: I've been on a student visa all this time, which has been great. And a shout-out to a past guest, Chang Chihyun: he was my professor. I graduated now with my Masters of Modern Chinese Studies. With graduation, I basically had to find a job.

DN: Yay!

OF: So the biggest change is, now I'm on a work visa. I'm working with a friend of mine 刘健 [Liú Jiàn] in his company ‘Hand in Hand.’ So now that will be part of my activities here in China, which is very different to before. Also the month away has spurred me into wanting more of that. You and I met in Hong Kong. At that time I had my own company, and I was jet-setting around the world, and then you and I would do trips together, and then I would go for my own trips. I really want to go back into that lifestyle again, and maybe sniff around for some new projects. Not at the expense of Mosaic of China. But I do want to expand back into my other identities.

DN: Right. You're in Asia 20 years or so, right?

OF: Yeah, coming up to 20 years. Places like Singapore, where I was six years. Or Japan, where I first lived in Asia, all those years ago. What that means is, nothing will change with Mosaic of China, in terms of the content. What I think will change will be the release schedule. Because that's what keeps me so busy: editing down many hours of audio; trying to get all of the photos together; put them into videos; I'm writing up transcripts… If I was to carry on releasing episodes every week, then I would be stuck behind my desk. And now that borders have been reopened…

DN: … And you have a job…

OF: … And I have a job, that's the last thing I want to do. Or can do, honestly speaking.

DN: Right.

OF: Whether it means I release the episodes every other week, whether it's a kind of three-weeks-on/one-week-off, I don't know. It's also the case that everyone else is going to be completely busy with this new life as well. And they're not going to have time to listen every week either. So hopefully it will be in line with ‘China in 2023’. You know, you and I are looking at each other going “I don't know”.

DN: Right.

OF: You don't know how many work trips you’re gonna get, you don't know to what extent your role is going to change. It's the same story with me. What I do know is that this project means a lot to me. And I can't wait to release the second half of Season 03. There are 15 amazing episodes coming up. I haven't yet started editing any of them, so I don't know when I'm going to start to release them. But release them I will. I will continue to work with you. And I look forward to also being part of the wider community of listeners here in China. Now that we can meet freely, I am looking forward to the next event in Shanghai and hopefully doing more across China as well. Here’s looking forward to what I hope will be a great year ahead.

DN: Thank you, Oscar.

[Outro]

OF: Thanks very much again to Denny for giving up some of the time on Sunday which he could otherwise have spent sitting next to me on the couch watching TV. And thanks to you of course once again for listening. I try not to look too often at the statistics behind who is listening, and on what platform. But seeing as it was the beginning of the year, I tallied everything up and I’m super proud to announce that we’ve just surpassed 250,000 downloads. Around 60% of that number now comes from people listening to the version uploaded in China, around 30% listen to the international version, and the remaining 10% is shared between the PREMIUM versions of the show and the various video versions that I mentioned in my chat with Denny. Altogether that’s a quarter of a million downloads over the three-year lifespan of this project.

It was around the midway point of Season 01 when life in China suddenly and unexpectedly changed with the outbreak of COVID-19. So there’s a kind of neat symmetry that it’s at the midway point of Season 03 that we’re seeing China suddenly and unexpectedly change back again. But one thing that won’t change is my gratitude to you for being there all the way through. I’ll be taking some more time off over Chinese New Year, so I wish you all 新年快乐 [xīnnián kuàilè] and 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái], and I’ll see you again here for the second half of Season 03.

[Easter Egg]

OF: Was that OK with you?

DN: Well I guess we'll find out in the edit.

OF: Yep.