Season 02 Wrap-Up

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Bonus Episode

Mosaic of China with Oscar Fuchs - Season 02 Wrap-Up

Original Date of Release: 14 Sep 2021.

It's time to reflect on Season 02 of Mosaic of China. So for today's special Wrap-Up episode, I invited Logan Brouse from Tacolicious to interview me, and to share his thoughts on podcasting in China, in the context of the launch of his own upcoming show: 'China on the Rocks'.

As well as discussing the past legacy and future development of Mosaic of China, we also discuss the thorny issues of authenticity, profanity, and... the correct way to pronounce 'cicada'.

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[Trailer]

LB: Well, I mean, is it normal that you do these podcasts without clothes?

[Intro]

OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are making their mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.

Thank you to everyone who could make it to the end of season party last week, it was great to see so many of you there. I think 200 people showed up in the end, some past guests, some listeners, and everyone in a shiny happy mood to mingle and have fun. And I’m going to say sorry to those same people too. You know, I aspire to be the kind of person who makes people say “It’s amazing, when you’re talking with him, he makes you feel like there’s no-one else in the room.” Well if it’s possible to do the exact opposite of that, I think that's what I managed to achieve. For most of this project, it’s just me and my laptop and my headphones. So to suddenly be around so many people was a bit overwhelming for a delicate soul like myself. I don’t quite know how other people do it, I had to spend the whole following day laying prone in a dark room. So yeah, thank you and sorry, I will try to keep improving! 

We held the party at Tacolicious, a Mexican restaurant in the 静安 [Jìng'ān] district of Shanghai. And the reason we held it there is because I had already recorded today’s special end of season episode with Logan Brouse, one of the team behind Tacolicious and someone who is well known in the F&B scene here in Shanghai. So please enjoy, and I'll be back at the end with my final thoughts.

[Main]

OF: Maybe you'll hear the cicadas. Or do you say ‘ci-cay-das’? What do you say?

LB: We say ‘ci-cay-das.’ But I grew up in New Jersey, so I have a weird accent with everything I say.

OF: I thought it was San Francisco. 

LB: So I was born in New Jersey - I lived where they film The Sopranos - but from New Jersey, I moved when I was 13 to New Mexico. Twenty-one, I moved to California, to San Francisco. Nine years later, I moved to Shanghai.

OF: OK. Well that's actually quite a common story with many people in Shanghai, right?

LB: Yeah.

OF: Everyone seems to be constantly on the move. Who the hell knows what we're doing at this point.

LB: I think we're all finding ourselves. Especially in China, you know? 

OF: Yeah. It's been 10 years for you, so have you found yourself? 

LB: Well I think I found who I am now. My Chinese self may be different than my American self.

OF: Totally. Well, we’ve jumped straight into our conversation. What I want to do is quickly introduce you.

LB: Sure.

OF: So I'm here today with Logan Brouse. Logan, you are someone who I've wanted to have some connection with this podcast for actually two years, since we started. You have run restaurants and bars…

LB: Yes.

OF:  …You have your fingers and thumbs in all kinds of other projects too. So when you told me that you had, in your mind, the idea of your own podcast project, that was when I thought “OK, perfect. I will bring you along to do this special bonus episode at the end of Season 02.”

LB: Well I was like… I would like to say like I was a young Luke Skywalker looking for my Obi Wan Kenobi. I came through the desert of 安福路 [Ānfú Lù] to find out more about what is this mystical force that surrounds us, and envelops us, and helps us create things. And you know, that is the Mosaic of China.

OF: Obi Wan Kenobi, thank you, I appreciate that.

LB: Well it's the accent, it’s definitely the accent.

OF: You can bow down to me later. What I wanted to ask you then, was about your new podcast project. So it hasn't been released as we are recording, but I'm guessing it's going to be coming out pretty soon.

LB: Yes. so the whole idea is called China on the Rocks. 

OF: OK.

LB: We talk with F&B people about F&B things - ‘F&B’ being ‘Food & Beverage’ - especially how it relates to China. Like, for example, one of our first episodes was about cosmopolitans. The cocktail, the cosmopolitan.

OF: Right.

LB: And I remember, I was working in a nightclub called M1NT. And ‘Sex and the City 2’ had just come out. And it was a worldwide phenomenon.

OF: Awful film.

LB: Hey, I was an extra in that movie, sir.

OF: You were?

LB: Look for me, you'll see me.

OF: Seriously?

LB: Yeah, I'm in weird stuff all the time. But the cosmopolitan - the cocktail itself - women were so liberated by this one cocktail. And at nightclubs, we were making cosmopolitans like they were going out of style, because it was just the ‘fire’ drink to make at that time. I was talking about that in the podcast, like, that's part of the history of China F&B. These little watershed moments change whole points of view in a culture sometimes.

OF: What, just not one American movie?

LB: Yeah. It was a whole movement, Sex and the City, you know. And I think it hit China pretty hard, especially Shanghai. So we'd see the nightclub, these women would be dolled up. And they were going for their cosmos. And it was such a glamorous thing. And that was kind of the focal point about making the podcast. It’s what are these movements that we saw in China that influenced us, and influenced how we react with customers and guests, and how we make a better environment for everybody.

OF: Well, that's a good example. And it just shows that there is such a lot of room in the world of podcasts, for more in-depth content about China. It makes me realise the pros and cons of this project. You know, in many ways, it is too broad.

LB: Well, I mean, at the same time, mine… You dig yourself into a little bit of a hole every once in a while. Because sometimes we think something about, like, the history of the Ramos Gin Fizz is so crazy cool in China, and then realise nobody knows what it is. 

OF: Nope. 

LB: Like, that's the beauty of it, too. Like, we could go back and look at history books from 100 years ago, there are cocktail books written about Shanghai. Shanghai was a Bacardi town 100 years ago. And it's just one of the things we look into it, we look at the cocktails that were made, and you're like “Oh, wow, these are gross!” Nasty. We made a couple of them. And it’s the fun thing about living in a city with so much history. But at the same time, you get lost in all these bubbles, where only you know what you're talking about. So I think it's the same kind of thing, you have your walls you hit, and we have our walls we hit.

OF: I think I still see a difference, because you're talking about your depth of knowledge that you might alienate your audience with. I am the opposite. Because the secret is, people would think “Oh, you come across as quite knowledgeable”. No! I'm skating across a very thin layer of ice. The minute we go a little bit deeper, I'm discovered as an ultimate fraud. But that's the difference, I think you would have this geeky knowledge, which means you can't get caught out.

LB: Well I mean, to paraphrase Socrates, he said “The man who admits he knows nothing, knows everything”.

OF: Ha!

LB: So I think you know a lot of stuff, and it's really good to admit when you don't know things. Because then you can learn things. 

OF: Totally. 

LB: So I think in that case, we're both the same.

OF: Well, I'm a fan already. So tell me once again, what is the podcast called, and when is it going to be released?

LB: So we're calling it ‘China on the Rocks’. It's always going to be myself and then I'm joined by three or four other co-hosts, depending on who's available. And then hopefully, we'll have a big announcement, maybe we can do it together.

OF: Oh, I will definitely be a fan, so I'll be listening. And good luck with the project. 

LB: Thank you. 

OF: One of the things that I'm struggling with, I must say, is the authenticity of the voice that I am projecting on Mosaic of China. Because authentically, I am a very snarky person. Like, if we're talking about the UK, and we were in the UK, I would be incredibly critical about all kinds of things. 

LB: Yeah.

OF: Not because, necessarily, I'm being negative - I think the difference between being critical and negative can be a thin membrane - but that's just who I am. And one issue that I found is that, I'm not being entirely myself, in the fact that I can't be that natural, snarky **** that I actually am in real life. 

LB: Yes.

OF: How are you approaching this with your podcast? Do you think that you're going to have to bash against that wall, or is it not going to be an issue for you?

LB: No, it's definitely an issue already. Like, the edits themselves have been kind of interesting. There was a really popular song that came out a few months ago about mojitos by Jay Chou, the very famous singer Jay Chou.

OF: This was the hip-hop one, was it?

LB: Yeah. We got into a whole conversation about mojitos, and the influences, and how they are in China. And it's kind of like a staple drink at every place you go to. And it kind of went on to the singer and his origin. And then we realised - as I'm even saying it now - there’s tangents you could go on, and tangents that you don't need to go on.

OF: Yeah. I mean, absolutely you're right. I agree. Maybe this is just my failing as a snarky Brit. For a positive, optimistic American, maybe it's natural for you to not be so snarky.

LB: No I think, Logan 11 years ago, there wasn't WeChat, there wasn't Alipay. Like, I've missed out on most of Western social media. You had a ‘best of’ episode - or the clips - and it was about your Chinese phrases. And one was, er…

OF: Oh, 外网 [wàiwǎng].

LB: 外网 [Wàiwǎng], yes. And so I mean, I just learned to live without that. It does shape how I talk with people in the States. But that's, you know… Any place you live in, it's gonna affect how you are. 

OF: Well…

LB: And that was a tap dance, by the way. I was tap dancing around that.

OF: I saw it, I heard it, I marvelled in it. No it's true. But just to crash through your dance - especially when it comes to China versus the States - if you are at all positive about China, you are branded as this weirdly brainwashed China freak. 

LB: Yeah. 

OF: And then, if you do the other way around, well, you just ‘don't like China’. So this tap dance is constant. I mean, this is exactly what we are living in.

LB: Yeah. So now, while we're talking about censorship and everything, I noticed that you were swearing earlier. What's going on with that? Because I know this is rated ‘Clean’ on Apple Podcasts.

OF: Actually, that is a good observation. I do bleep out the swears. And I try not to swear that much, because it's a family show. And I want this to be accepted by as many people as possible. So just in case anyone is sensitive to swears, that’s probably why I don't do it. Like we're talking about with authenticity, I as a person use swear words like punctuation. So again, that's one of the things that I'm not necessarily being my true self in. But - let me be honest with you - I think it's funnier when you beep the swear. 

LB: Yeah.

OF: Like if I now say, “You can **** my hairy **** and I’ll **** you up the **** and ************”, that's gonna come across as even funnier than what I actually said in real life.

LB: Well, the funniest part is, he's gesticulating with his hands wildly.

OF: Yeah, I'm surprised I didn't knock you in the head with my windmill. 

LB: Well, I think you got out Cocosanti’s China ‘toy’. 

OF: Oh! But that was heavily pixelated. 

LB: Yes. 

OF: Yeah, I mean, exactly. It's the same thing. It's actually quite funny to see the pixelated version of what that photo actually was. In that example, the true thing was pretty funny too.

LB: I mean, Cocosanti was doing our trivia night at Tacolicious during that. So I was like “Oh my god, this is so funny that you’re here.”

OF: I love Cocosanti.

LB: Cocosanti’s awesome. 

OF: I just don't catch enough of his shows, and I feel bad about that.

LB: I do want to go back to the thing about cursing, really quickly. And the reason being is, I curse like a normal person, not less, not more. But I used to be the cocktail columnist for That’s Shanghai for a couple years. 

OF: For what Shanghai?

LB: That’s Shanghai.

OF: Got it. 

LB: And they would actually add curse words into my columns. And I remember reading that, and I was like “I didn't write this. I didn’t… Whoa, whoa, whoa.” And this is in the print magazines. And I was like “Oh wow, guys.” They were like "Logan, we want you to be a little saucy”. So I put a couple of curses in. But, like, it would be almost like an N.W.A. album. Like, it was just like ‘F’ ‘F’ ‘F’, ‘S’ ‘S’ ’S’. I was like “Oh my goodness, guys. I don't want to be that guy”. Then I started writing more, because that's what they wanted me to do. And all of a sudden they were like “Oh yeah, you can't curse any more, because this goes to schools now”.

OF: Oh god, “What do you want from me, man?” That's so funny. Well, I mean, as much as your reputation is to be this late-night party-boy, you’re actually preppy looking, right? 

LB: Well, that's how you get away with everything. 

OF: OK. Man, this is it. I haven't learned anything.

LB: Oh, this is what I learned, honestly, working at M1NT. You had to wear suit every night, you had to be well dressed. And then you could just raise hell. You know, in a suit people would be like “Oh, at least he has some cash behind him,” even if you don't have anything. OK, just to change the subject, I've got some questions I think maybe people want to know. 

OF: OK.

LB: So the first thing I wanted to know is, did you drink the beer from Vedett with your face on it?

OF: Do you know what, I had a sip, and then I gave the other ones away. However, I did post a photo of when I went to Duvel, the headquarter. 

LB: Yeah. 

OF: And there, I did have two beers, which I did actually like better. There's something about the white beer of the Vedett, I still can't do it.

LB: Do you know what, I’m not a beer person. I’m famously not a beer person. 

OF: Oh, dude! High five!

LB: So you're completely fine. All the beer companies know I'm not gonna even taste the products when they give them to me. It's not my taste.

OF: OK, I feel so vindicated now.

LB: Yeah. No, you're good to go. OK, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Cocosanti. But what's your favourite podcast-recording memory that you've had from all the interviews you've done?

OF: Um, that's funny, I was asked the same question at the end of last season and I fudged the answer. 

LB: No, that's why I'm asking it. 

OF: Yeah right. 

LB: I feel like it should be a seasonal recap question for you. 

OF: Yeah. Actually, the one that sticks in my mind the most now is probably the one with ‘Noxy,’ Noxolo. 

LB: OK.

OF: Because… And maybe this is interesting, because you're American. The thing that it really illuminated for me personally - it was deeply personal - was the idea of, if you don't have diverse friends, how do you make diverse friends? Like, what do you, do you have a sign round your neck saying ‘I want black friends’? And when I think about what's happened in America in the last year that this series has been coming out, it's been tumultuous for a number of reasons, of course. But the whole conversation that we're now having about race in America, the system has been so deeply segregated, that of course you're not going to have as many friends from the other side of the divide, because of that segregation that has somehow been built up. That reckoning in the States really weighs on my mind, especially when we're here in China, where actually there is no such reckoning… 

LB: Yeah.

OF: …When it comes to how they deal with race. So that interview with Noxy, it just seems to come up in my mind so much, because of these deeper issues that I've personally been thinking about. I wouldn't want to put it above any other interviews, it’s just the one that seems to resonate in my mind all the time.

LB: Oh that’s great. I mean, hopefully every season, we'll get a great answer. Because, I mean, you didn't fudge this one up at all. OK, so I think for everybody that's interested in doing podcasts - or you know, as a guy, after you turn 35, you definitely want to have a podcast, it's kind of in our DNA - if you don't mind talking about it, how do you do your recording stuff?

OF: Good question. The equipment is such a specialised area, which gets very boring and very geeky, very quickly. But basically, all you need is, you can use your laptop. What we're doing now is, we're plugged into GarageBand, which is the free application you get with your Mac. I've put two microphones in, so not one. But I could have just had one, and we’d both be leaning in, very intimately. You have to really work out your sound quality. So this is not ideal as a studio, because - you’ve probably heard - there are outdoor noises that will be picked up. Plus, as much as you try to muffle the sound, it is very difficult to get rid of the echo. And after a while, too much echo is hard on the listener. So that is part of the equipment equation. So you've got your microphones. You've got the mixer, which is basically the computer, GarageBand. Headphones, you don't necessarily need. But if you want to get people to really focus in on the interview, then headphones are a good idea. And then it will also come down to how you edit. And I use a bizarre editing programme because I was taught how to edit podcasts by my previous editor who was a friend of mine. And I really wanted to work with him, so I worked with him in the first season. He then taught me how to edit. But actually he's not a professional podcast editor, he actually is more a video editor. So I'm using a video editing programme to edit down my podcast.

LB: Oh, interesting.

OF: It's the most bizarre thing. But anyway, you are starting your podcast. So what have I missed out that you're using?

LB: Whiskey. 

OF: Ha.

LB: That’s basically my editing process, it’s a big glass of whiskey, then you drink till the pain goes away.

OF: Ah, If you're anything like me, listening to the sound of your own voice is excruciating. 

LB: Yes.

OF: OK, I'm now going to put you on the spot. What would you say that I could do differently?

LB: What I…? It's kind of… It's a tough one. 

OF: And look into my eyes.

LB: Yeah, yeah. No, because I'm trying to think what I like, and what I don't like. And the ‘like’ column is a lot longer than the ‘don't like’ column. Some of the stuff, I think, you just have to cut out, that you find you have to cut out. Whereas I was hearing you talk about it before, like some of the cuts you've done were some very funny stories that you just couldn't tell. And I think sometimes that kind of stuff, people want to hear it. Even with bleeps at all. Warts and all, we want to know what things are. But I think that would be the only creative, constructive criticism I could really bring to the table.

OF: I mean, thank you. I do want to keep improving. 

LB: Well, I mean, is it normal that you do these podcasts without clothes?

OF: Beautiful.

LB: Well, from a person who has opened a number of bars and restaurants in Shanghai, we design something; we go to the construction; we see it built; it's designed to spec; we have the ideas all done; but it takes us about a year or two to really understand how the restaurant moves. Where do the people sit? Are they sitting in the places that we thought they'd sit in? Are they sitting someplace else? Is the beer machine in the right area? Or is it someplace we could have moved it, and we didn't think about it? And sometimes it just takes a good year or two - after you have your groove, and everything's done, and the dust is settled, and the construction workers have left - and you're like “OK, this wasn't landing where I thought it would land. Why not? How do I improve that?” So sometimes it's good to have your format done, have a couple years in, and go “OK, we ask 10 questions. What's great about 10 when we could do 8 questions?” You know “Is there a filler question we could be skipping? Or maybe something we could be changing?” Sharpening the platform a little bit farther.

OF: I am actually going to drop one. 

LB: Oh, wow. Big news here, guys. 

OF: Big news. It's coming out. So it's going to be the last question, which is ‘What's your favourite China-related news source?' The first reason is, it's the last question. And it's kind of a downer, like the other ones tend to bring out interesting stories. And this one is very factual. I like it, but it was a mistake to put that at the end, and then have that being the finale. But secondly, - and maybe you've noticed this - everyone answers in a very similar way, which is basically "I get my news on WeChat”. And I have to admit, that is how I would answer it. And each time someone says it, I go “Ooh!” 

LB: Yeah.

OF: That's my fault. It's the way I've worded the question. So for next season, I'm not deleting it. But I am going to broaden the question so that you still could answer it as a new source. But the question is going to be now “What or who is the source of your inspiration in China?”

LB: That’s a good one, yeah. 

OF: Right? So of course, you can be inspired to think about something which you read in the paper. So you could still say “Yeah, I always get my inspiration from reading this, reading that.” But it allows now people to also say “No, my greatest inspiration is Logan Brouse,” you know.

LB: Makes sense. Checks out. 

OF: Yeah. The smell is a bit disconcerting. But otherwise, inspirational guy.

LB: Well you said it was an ‘au naturel’ podcast, so… What I think is fun is, I like how you have people recommend who’s next on the show. And I think an interesting point may be - and this is just me speaking, you know, openly - is they could recommend with a question too. Maybe it's something you haven't thought of. Obviously, you would have total control over what gets asked. But it could be like an interesting question that somebody has a different point of view. And you could be like “Oh, what a cool thing this is. I didn't write this, but I love this idea”.

OF: That's an excellent idea. And what I want to do in the next season is to involve, at least the people who listen to the premium version of the show, to come up with questions for the guests as well. But to build it into the referral, that's a smart idea. 

LB: Hey, I'm just writing Season 03 for you, that’s all.

OF: It's true, I have to pay you a consulting fee now. This has definitely been worthwhile.

LB: I mean, one of the other things I was gonna ask you…

OF: Oh.

LB:  …Is out of the Season 01 Compilations, which one was a sleeper that surprised you the most, with the interactions that came out of it?

OF: That's an unbelievable question, because that is the third and final thing I wanted to say about what's happening next.

LB: I’m crushing this podcast. 

OF: Because when I did those compilations, it was actually just to buy myself some time, because I didn't want to start the second season of the podcast until people had returned to China. So I was like “What can I do?” And that's when I came up with that idea. But I am going to do that again, for Season 02. Just to answer your question though, funnily enough, the last one I did - which was a Compilation of Chinese phrases - that got the most traction. I think that, out of all compilations, was the most popular.

LB: Honestly, that's my favourite one. 

OF: Oh, is it?

LB: Really. I take Chinese classes, and I actually asked my teacher “Can we go over some more phrases?” And I used some of the ones from the phrases that you gave. Like, I think the one gentleman said something about ‘One mountain can't have two tigers’. 

OF: Yes. 

LB: And that was really cool. I was like “I love this phrase”. And a lot of the phrases were really, really cool.

OF: Yeah. OK, you're making me think that that's something which I should double down on, then. But that's interesting feedback. And I really appreciate hearing that, Logan. You know, you're someone who I've known, in the ether, in life in Shanghai. We met very briefly and peripherally in person as well. 

LB: Yeah.

OF: We haven't had this chance to sit down one-on-one the whole time. And I really am grateful that you said “Yes” to doing this. And it's been a great excuse to get to know you just a bit better. So thank you for those comments. And most of all, thank you very much for coming in.

LB: Well, thank you for having me. And I look forward to hearing Season 03 and beyond.

[Outro]

OF: Well it is time for me to start recording Season 03. So we are going to have a break from new guests for a short while. But as I mentioned, I will now be releasing compilation episodes comprised of the answers to the ten questions that I’ve been asking all thirty of the guests from Season 02. It’s really fun to hear all thirty voices from the season spliced together, and answering the same question, so I’m looking forward to putting these together. I’ll release the first compilation - on the subject of the guests’ favourite destinations in mainland China - in two weeks’ time. And then the plan is to release the follow nine in two-week intervals after that. If you are a PREMIUM subscriber on Apple Podcasts, Patreon or 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], I’m planning on releasing some extra mini-episodes now and then just for you. I’m going to use these extra PREMIUM episodes as experiments in talking more personally and authentically myself, so let’s see what happens. And I will also be in touch with PREMIUM listeners for your contributions and questions for the guests of Season 03. So there is still a good reason to continue to support the show. You guys especially do help to keep me motivated and - with your contributions - caffeinated. 

Finally, a request to all of you listening. This gap between Seasons is a great way for me to take stock of the show. And, just as I asked Logan for his feedback, I would love to hear yours too. Which of the other 10 questions should I tweak, or switch out entirely? How can I improve what I do on WeChat, or on other social media platforms? How can I do better in general, with the overall tone of the show? And if I have any drop-outs for the upcoming Season, who would you recommend that I replaced them with?

I already said all my other 'thankyou's at the end of last week's episode with Jiyoung, so I'll sign off for now, and I'll catch you back here in two weeks.